Examination of witnesses (Questions 321
- 339)
WEDNESDAY 1 JULY 1998
MR JOHN
BALLARD, MR
CHRIS BREARLEY
and MR DAVID
ROWLANDS
Chairman
321. Mr Ballard, can I welcome you with
your colleagues this afternoon. We know that you are so experienced
in the ways of Select Committees and so good at dealing with us
that it will not worry you if we give you five minutes extra interrogation
by starting a little earlier than usual. Could I ask you, firstly,
to identify your colleagues, for the record?
(Mr Ballard) Thank you, Madam Chairman. John Ballard,
Principal Finance Officer. On my left, Christopher Brearley, Director-General,
Planning, Roads and Local Transport. On my right, David Rowlands,
Director General, Railways, Aviation and Shipping.
322. We are very grateful to you. We have
been looking at your Annual Report, and the Deputy Prime Minister
does say, very clearly, in that, that he is seeking to ensure
greater coherence and a more integrated approach to policy. What
are the most significant examples of the successful integration
of your policies?
(Mr Ballard) If I may. I think the last year has
been a period in which we have sort to make the two Departments
work successfully as one; the underlying objective, as Andrew
Turnbull outlined to the Environment Sub-Committee last week,
was to deliver, across the range of programmes that the two former
Departments were concerned with, to ensure we got better synergy
between them. The clearest example of where we are hoping to demonstrate
this is through the Integrated Transport White Paper, which, as
you know, is to be published shortly, after the CSR.
323. You are going to give us a definition
of "shortly", are you?
(Mr Ballard) I do not think I can improve upon
what Andrew Turnbull said to you last week, Madam Chairman, so
I am afraid I cannot give you anything more exact. The Integrated
Transport White Paper will be, I think, the first example. We
are also hoping to publish shortly thereafter a document on Sustainable
Development in connection with implementing Kyoto. So those, I
think, will be the two leading examples of how we are seeking
to demonstrate in a real way the benefits of bringing these two
Departments together.
324. Before we follow that up, can you tell
us how close you are to your desire to have a 25 per cent of staff
moves being across the divide?
(Mr Ballard) Obviously it depends a bit what period
you take, but in terms of the——
325. Let us take one that gives a reflection
we can recognise?
(Mr Ballard) Right. In terms of the posts being
advertised and being filled, at the moment, month on month, we
are very close, in terms of meeting that 25 per cent, it is a
question of 23, 25.
326. So, in terms of being filled, we are
talking about new posts since the Department was merged?
(Mr Ballard) No. We are saying the Department
has a policy whereby all the posts that come up for vacancy are
advertised, so that, if somebody moves, their post becomes vacant,
their post in turn is advertised, so there is a regular turnover
of staff across the Department. Posts at any level are open to
anybody at the level of the posts concerned, they may apply for
it. The record, I think, generally, is that, in terms of posts
being filled that way, about a quarter are being filled by people
across the former divide. So we are confident that we are demonstrating
that commitment and meeting it.
327. The Permanent Secretary did tell, of
course, our other half that it was the view of the Department
of Transport staff that they had been taken over; would you agree
with that view?
(Mr Ballard) I am flanked, if I might say so,
by representatives of the two former Departments, so I——
328. You are suggesting we ask them?
(Mr Ballard) They might like to add to what I
say. But, certainly, I do not think, again, I can improve on what
Andrew Turnbull said to you, which was there is no doubt there
was that feeling about, the Board and senior management are doing
their best to tackle it, but we acknowledge that it is not an
instant process and needs to be continually worked at.
Mr Pickles
329. The two computers systems within the
various separate Departments could not speak to one another, that
is right, and you are using two different word processing systems;
how successful have you been now in enabling the old Department
of Transport to speak to the old Department of the Environment?
(Mr Ballard) It is true that when the two Departments
were put together there were difficulties in communication, but
we had been working together, although not formally merged, for
a period of a month or so, and we had already identified this,
obviously, as an urgent area to put right. In effect, we have
achieved that, enabling the two existing systems to talk to each
other in a reasonable way; it does not give complete compatibility,
which is why we are rolling out an adaptation of what was the
Environment Department's system across the whole Department, in
effect, picking up the best attributes of the two former systems.
That is well on the way, and I think by, the target is by December
this year we should have a uniform system across the whole Department.
330. And that system's principal ingredient
is what, in terms of information technology?
(Mr Ballard) It is based on a 16 Bit technology.
331. That is not precisely what I am asking,
but do continue?
(Mr Ballard) We call it ETHOS, which is the system
which is actually in place.
Chairman
332. Very suitable for a Government Department,
I am sure.
(Mr Ballard) I can give you a note on the technicalities
of it, but basically what it enables us to do is communicate,
in terms of text and messages, and do all the standard things
you would expect on an office computer, in terms of timetabling,
and so on.
Mr Pickles
333. So things like diary, etc., etc.?
(Mr Ballard) That is right, yes.
334. I was not clear, have you now opted
for WordPerfect or for Microsoft Word?
(Mr Ballard) We have gone for Word.
335. Presumably, this has been quite expensive,
and there have been a number of stories circulating, actually,
how expensive; would you care to put a figure on how much it has
cost to put it together?
(Mr Ballard) I think it is in the region of about
£3 million, overall. I think that is right.[1]
336. So the stories of £5 million are
widely inaccurate?
(Mr Ballard) I think so, but if I am proved to
be wrong, on examination, I will send you a note.
Mr Pickles: That is
fine.
Mr Bennett
337. Now you have got these computers sorted
out, is there any reason why the Department cannot send to the
Select Committees its evidence on a computer disk as well as in
a paper copy, which would cut down our administration substantially?
(Mr Ballard) We could certainly look at that,
in terms, I think we need to ensure that our systems are compatible,
but it seems to me a reasonable request, which we will obviously
investigate.
Chairman: Think what
fun you could have, snarling up our system. Mr Stevenson.
Mr Stevenson: Can
I change the subject, Mrs Dunwoody?
Chairman: Please.
Mr Stevenson
338. To road maintenance, Mr Ballard. I
understand the 1997 National Road Maintenance Condition Survey
indicated that all roads, including motorways, were the worst
recorded, the condition of them, and for, according to my little
scribble here, principal roads, non-motorways, of course, had
deteriorated sharply and were the worst recorded, a pretty grim
picture. I seem to recall that a written answer recently by the
Roads Minister on this issue indicated that extra resources had
been made available for motorways and trunk roads, but no centrally-held
figures were available to indicate the backlog of maintenance
on non-motorway, non-trunk roads, principal, local authority roads.
Is that the case, do you not hold such figures?
(Mr Ballard) Perhaps I could ask Mr Brearley to
answer that.
(Mr Brearley) The position is, Madam Chairman,
that the Local Government Association have made an assessment,
their assessment, of what it might cost to deal with the backlog,
and that is a figure, I believe, of something over £5 billion
over 20 years; they are arguing for a level of expenditure of
about £250 million a year, ongoing, to deal with the situation.
That is their figure rather than the Government's. I think it
is true to say that our experts do not altogether agree with the
methodology that they are using to assess what the value is.
339. I am sure that is the case, but do
I take it then, through Mrs Dunwoody, that the answer to my question
is, as far as the DETR is concerned, there are no centrally-held
figures, you have no figures to indicate what the backlog of road
maintenance requirements for non-trunk roads, non-motorways is?
(Mr Brearley) Yes.
1 Note by Witness: The total cost of the Department's
unified office automation system, ETHOS, was £3.596 million.
This includes in-house costs. Back
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