Examination of witness (Questions 1180
- 1199)
TUESDAY 3 NOVEMBER 1998
MR
PETER
PENFOLD,
CMG,
OBE
1180. Do you think that no matter how late
in the day this has been, the introduction of these guidelines
will avoid difficulties of this kind arising in the future where
mercenaries are concerned?
(Mr Penfold) Yes, I do. I think it is much better
that there is now a clearer understanding for people working overseas
and indeed here in London.
1181. It is hellishly late in the day, is
it not?
(Mr Penfold) It is too late for this.
Chairman: Mr Penfold,
you have been before the Committee for almost an hour and a half.
There are still a number of colleagues who wish to question you,
I think it only fair at this point that we suspend the Committee
until two o'clock and return then so that other colleagues can
put questions to you.
The Committee suspended from 1.20 pm to 2.00 pm
Chairman: Mr Penfold,
we will continue. May I make one apology: two of my colleagues
are involved in Scottish Questions which begin at 2.30; if they
leave at that time it in no way reflects on the evidence which
you are giving.
Mr Wilshire
1182. Mr Penfold, I noticed, particularly
before lunch, not quite so much now, that there are a significant
number of your colleagues who have accompanied you to give evidence
today. Could you identify them for us and give us their positions
in the FCO?
(Mr Penfold) Yes, certainly.
Chairman: I will have
to rule that out, for this reason, that they are not witnesses
and I do not think it is in order to do so.
Mr Wilshire
1183. I will proceed by written question
in that case, Chairman. That is the other way of getting the information.
Mr Penfold, you said earlier that you had been told not to visit
the FCO, is that correct?
(Mr Penfold) Yes, after I came back and when the
Customs investigation started.
1184. You came back when?
(Mr Penfold) I left Freetown on 25th April and
got back to London on 26th April.
1185. So since then you have had no contact
with the FCO?
(Mr Penfold) I have had no contact with the members
of the Africa Department for discussions on the Sandline issue.
I have had contacts with other members of the FCO on personnel
matters.
1186. Who gave you that instruction?
(Mr Penfold) I was given the first instruction
by a Mr Dalton, who is on the personnel services side, and I was
also advised by Mr Dales not to go to the Department.
1187. Were those instructions put in writing
to you?
(Mr Penfold) No, they were not.
1188. What reason was given?
(Mr Penfold) I believe the feeling was that because
the Customs investigation had started it was felt it would be
inappropriate for those of us who had been involved in this to
be seen in any way as getting together. I think the idea was not
to create the impression that we were within the Foreign Office
trying to hide anything or concoct any stories.
1189. I also believe I heard you say you
had been invited back into the FCO to be briefed on how to appear
in front of us. Is that correct?
(Mr Penfold) I had meetings on Friday and yesterday
to brief myself on the formality of appearing before the FAC.
I was given some guidelines which have been issued on how officials
appear before the FAC and other Select Committees of the House.
1190. Was it your initiative or an FCO initiative?
(Mr Penfold) That was an FCO initiative.
1191. Who invited you in?
(Mr Penfold) I met with Mr Bevan, who is the new
head of AD(E), the Africa Department.
1192. How long did these briefings last?
(Mr Penfold) About an hour. Then I had a further
briefing in the Cabinet Office because tomorrow morning I am also
appearing before the Intelligence Committee.
1193. Who did you see in the Cabinet Office?
(Mr Penfold) I cannot quite remember their names,
quite frankly. It included me and the clerk of the committee for
the Intelligence Committee.
1194. What ground was covered in your briefing
for appearing in front of us?
(Mr Penfold) It was mainly being guided by these
guidelines.
Sir Peter Emery
1195. Tell the truth but don't elaborate!
(Mr Penfold) It is a document called, Departmental
Evidence and Response to Select Committees.
Mr Heath: It is the
same document we already have, Chairman.
Chairman: I am not
aware if that document is available to Members of Parliament,
but I suspect it could be.
Mr Wilshire: Now it
has been referred to, could we ask our clerk to check whether
we already have a copy and, if not, may I request one?
Chairman: We will
do that.
Mr Wilshire
1196. Mr Penfold, you also said earlier
that you had met Mr Lloyd—I am not sure whether it was once
or a number of occasions—and you indicated it was around
the time of the Heads of Government Meeting in Edinburgh, which
was last October. Could you cast your mind back and tell us how
many occasions you met Mr Lloyd during that period?
(Mr Penfold) I believe one of the occasions was
prior to the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting. One of
the other times was when I had come back to the UK; I had a meeting
with him then to bring him up-to-date on the situation in Sierra
Leone and that would have been around, probably, July time, I
think.
1197. Of last year?
(Mr Penfold) Yes. Then also prior to the Commonwealth
Heads of Government Meeting there was this conference—
Chairman
1198. That was October of last year?
(Mr Penfold) Yes. Just immediately prior to the
Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting there was a conference
organised by the Government of Sierra Leone in which we were very
much involved in helping, and Mr Lloyd was one of the speakers
at that conference. I met him on that occasion and indeed was
present when he had a meeting with President Kabbah, which was
also at that conference. Then, a week later, when we went up to
Edinburgh, Mr Lloyd was there in Edinburgh and he had a meeting
with President Kabbah in President Kabbah's hotel suite, at which
also Mr Foulkes was present and I sat in on that meeting. After
that meeting I actually walked back from the hotel to the conference
centre with Mr Lloyd, again, sort of really going over what President
Kabbah had just been speaking to him about.
1199. Had you met him at all during 1998?
(Mr Penfold) Yes, he came out as part of the Commonwealth
Ministerial Advisory Group Mission, which is Foreign Ministers
or Foreign Office representatives, and they paid a very brief
visit to Freetown, and they were actually in Freetown for about
seven hours. That was March or April of this year. I have not
got the exact date but I could give it to you.
| 
