Examination of witness (Questions 1340
- 1349)
TUESDAY 3 NOVEMBER 1998
MR
PETER
PENFOLD,
CMG,
OBE
1340. Can I just go to a more recent thing.
There have been sadly the executions of officers on the junta
side since and there are other people under sentence of death.
What is your relationship now with the Sierra Leone Government?
You said earlier that you have not been to the Foreign Office
of late. How has Her Majesty's Government's view on what is both
a humanitarian and to some extent a human rights issue been conveyed
to you and how do you convey it to the government? It was inferred
that the United Kingdom had a lot of clout with President Kabbah.
(Mr Penfold) Britain has a very close relationship.
On the question of the executions I went and expressed serious
concern at the carrying out of executions. I pointed out that
it was British Government policy to ask all governments around
the world to abolish capital punishment and not to use it. I also
expressed serious concern at the fact that in the military courts
martial there was no appeal process. The appeal process had been
in Sierra Leone legislation but had been removed in 1971 by President
Stevens. Nevertheless there was a commitment under the International
Convention that all judicial cases should have an appeal process.
I made those points very forcibly to President Kabbah, and indeed
they were followed up by the Minister, Mr Lloyd, telephoning also.
As a result of our representations some of those convicted and
sentenced to death were given clemency but others were carried
out. The strength of feeling in Sierra Leone on this is very high.
Many people feel that if no executions had been carried out there
would have been riots on the streets and President Kabbah would
have been overthrown. Some of the people who were executed were
referred to in a comment from Number 10 as being "unattractive".
One person was responsible for a gruesome thing with an 86 year
old woman whose son was dragged before her and his penis was cut
off and she was crying. They chopped his head off, gave it to
this 86 year old woman and said "you nurse that". They
then cut out the heart of her son and stuffed it in her mouth.
They then burned down the old woman's house and told everyone
else in the village that if anyone gave her any degree of refuge
at all they would burn down their houses. So this poor 86 year
old woman was found three days later in the smouldering rubble
of her house still nursing the head of her dead son. One of those
people who was executed was responsible for that. By contrast,
and this is something that President Kabbah has not told people
and maybe I should not reveal it, when he heard that story he
rang the woman up and said "you have lost a son, please treat
me now as your son and I will look after you" and he is now
looking after that woman. That is just one incident of the terrible
things going on in Sierra Leone which we are trying now to address.
I hope, quite frankly, that some of the direction of our activities
can now be turned towards doing something about this. There is
a very important meeting taking place here in London tomorrow
and the British Government is leading the contact group to try
to get more support for Sierra Leone. These, quite frankly, are
the areas which I think Britain should be concerned about. I have
to say the Sierra Leone people do not understand why there has
been so much interest in this whole issue and that there is not
enough interest in helping them with their very genuine and serious
problems.
1341. On that last point, in conclusion,
it is a mutual problem we have of communication. We, as a Parliament,
as a Committee, do not know too much of what is going on in Sierra
Leone, indeed there is an absence of journalists in Sierra Leone,
certainly the mainstream news outlets, so one takes that point.
I was going to say in conclusion could you just bring us up to
date on the latest situation in Sierra Leone. To some extent you
have but I wonder if there is anything more you want to add on
that because the impression one has got is the government and
President Kabbah's control only runs in some areas of the country.
This Committee is a scrutiny committee, it is not exclusively
about the narrow issues of Sandline. Perhaps you could just amplify
anything else which you feel we ought to know.
(Mr Penfold) President Kabbah's government, thanks
mainly to ECOMOG, has control of the vast majority of the country,
certainly all the main towns and main routes. There are still
hostilities going on and atrocities being committed by the rebel
group and by some of the ex-soldiers. There is systemic torture
going on. They even proudly say that their campaign is called
"Spare no Soul". One of the leaders of the RUF said
they were intent on burning and killing everything, down to the
last chicken. Nevertheless, we are trying to find an end to these
hostilities. President Kabbah has announced that there is an amnesty
to any of those who are prepared to surrender and come out. They
can surrender in safety because the UN now have 48 military advisers
in the country who ensure that if they surrender they can surrender
in safety and there is now a demobilization/disarmament programme
which again the British government is very much in the forefront
of helping so that they can be absorbed into a demobilization/disarmament
programme and reintegrated back into society. These are things
which need more assistance.
1342. What is your mission in terms of United
Kingdom folk?
(Mr Penfold) I am now up to four strong. I am
still waiting for a total UK-based complement. As a High Commission
we are very busy. There is still a lot to do. Sierra Leone is
now the poorest country in the world and it is poor not because
of its resources—and we have talked about the influence
of diamonds—it is poor because of all these manmade problems.
In Sierra Leone we do have a genuine civilian democratically elected
government and it is a phenomenon. It is a phenomenon that we
saw the peaceful handover from a military government to a civilian
government. It is absolutely phenomenal that the people were prepared
to stand out for ten months just to seek its restoration. The
British government and British people had a very major role to
play in that. What the Sierra Leone people cannot understand is
why we seem to be regarding what we have done as a scandal instead
of a huge success.
1343. I think you need to tell them back
in Sierra Leone that we have never reached that judgement. It
is a matter of candour to Parliament by certain people, that has
been the issue and I do not mean you.
(Mr Penfold) I totally agree with you and other
members of the Committee that it is very difficult to get news
of Sierra Leone out here. I am afraid we are dependent upon the
media. We would be delighted to see a group from Parliament come
and visit Sierra Leone. I am sure the Sierra Leone Parliament
would make you very welcome.
Chairman: The Commonwealth
Parliamentary Association would be the appropriate body for that.
Mr Wilshire
1344. After such a compelling argument for
thinking about the future it makes me feel a bit mean to get back
to the matter in hand. I remain confused, Mr Penfold, by what
you said about the meeting of the 30th January when you were in
the FCO. If I understand you correctly, you said Mr Murray was
present at that meeting.
(Mr Penfold) Yes.
1345. There is disagreement about what happened,
but if for a moment we accept the FCO version of events, as reported
in Legg at paragraph 6.40, Sandline's involvement was mentioned
in that meeting, the use of force was mentioned at that meeting
and yet I believe you told us just now that there was no mention
made of sanction breaking or illegality. Did I hear you correctly?
(Mr Penfold) Yes.
1346. But you were sitting in this morning
when Mr Spicer told us about the meeting of the 19th January,
if I remember rightly, and again if we can accept that on this
occasion the FCO were telling the truth about what took place,
it is at that meeting, 11 days earlier, that there is the claim
that a red letter warning was read to Mr Spicer about the very
matter that was not mentioned to you 11 days later. Is that the
correct conclusion that I can draw from what I have heard this
morning and what I have heard this afternoon?
(Mr Penfold) I was not there at the 19th January
meeting so I cannot offer a comment on that.
Mr Wilshire: But you
have heard Mr Spicer's evidence this morning and you have read
Legg, where it is asserted by Mr Murray that that is indeed what
did happen. Let us give the FCO the benefit of the doubt and assume
that they were telling the truth on both occasions. We have you
telling us that no mention was made on the 30th January but that
a red letter warning was read 11 days earlier. Chairman, if that
is the correct conclusion of what we can draw from today, I remain
confused and I will end by saying that I therefore think it is
absolutely imperative that Mr Murray now gives us evidence.
Chairman
1347. Thank you. I will give you one perhaps
final opportunity, Mr Penfold, to comment on Legg. You will recall
there were two elements in the Legg Report criticisms of yourself.
One, that you should have done more to inform yourself about the
arms embargo. What do you say to that?
(Mr Penfold) I believe that is a harsh criticism
of me. I believe I have tried to demonstrate certainly in what
I have stated in my statement that I gave to the Legg Inquiry,
not least listing numerous documents of conversations, that everything
I was given led me to believe that the sanctions were directed
against the junta and therefore in the overwhelming evidence that
I was given from that point of view I saw no need to question
in my own mind that in fact it was the opposite.
1348. And the second element in the Legg
criticism of you is that you should have reported your contact
with President Kabbah and Mr Spicer back to the Foreign and Commonwealth
Office more promptly and effectively. What is your comment on
that?
(Mr Penfold) With hindsight I now wish I had made
a written record of that meeting with President Kabbah either
on the plane coming back or in between trying to do Christmas
shopping on the Monday and seeing my wife because obviously importance
is now attached to it. Nevertheless, that meeting was reported
on. I reported it orally to the department. I made reference to
it in a letter that I sent on the 30th December—and heaven
knows what happened to that letter—and then certainly after
I came back from leave I put it into a minute of the 2nd February.
1349. I am obliged. We have kept you long
in the field. Many thanks for your help.
(Mr Penfold) Thank you very much.
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