Examination of witnesses (Questions 20
- 39)
TUESDAY 27 JANUARY 1998
BARONESS SYMONS
OF VERNHAM
DEAN, MR
EDWARD CLAY
and MR RICHARD
WHITE
20. I want to see an example of where you
go beyond the bare rules.
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) Yes.
21. For example, in the Home Office case,
where someone has agreed and wishes to appeal, they go to an adjudication
officer and the job of the adjudication officer is to put himself
or herself in the shoes of the entry clearance officer to apply
the rules, and there is an appeal to see whether the rules have
been applied properly.
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) Yes.
22. That is therefore a judicial or quasi-judicial
decision which you are making.
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) Yes.
23. Is it not rather a big burden for you
to act in an appeal situation for the great multitude of cases?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) I think that
the point is I do it within the rules. Of course, there are some
very serious and weighty decisions, of course they are the sort
of decisions that affect people's happiness, and I am extraordinarily
conscious of that, but I do not have the discretion to go outside
the rules and, as Ms Abbott was saying a moment or two ago, it
is enormously important that we do as we said we would before
the Election and introduce an appeals system for visitors which
would be a quick system to deal with the cases as they arise as
speedily as possible. I think, if I may say so, that a lot of
the difficulty that we have in terms of constituents who are unhappy
and complain to MPs and MPs who complain to the FCO would be resolved
by an independent appeals system.
24. Hence the adjudication officer situation?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) I think that
is a very important point.
25. You mentioned the position post-Election
where expectations had been aroused and people were having a second
go, etcetera. Since the high point in June you say that the numbers
have decreased significantly. Is it your assumption that they
will return after a while to the pre-Election levels?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) I think it is
quite difficult to speculate. No, I do not think they will. I
think we have plateau-ed now at about 1,000 a month. As I said,
before the Election it was about 550. It went up very significantly
in the summer to 1,300 and we have now plateau-ed.
26. And you are now down to about 1,000
and falling?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) I do not know
that it is falling. I think we had quite a heavy month in December.
Before I could commit myself to how the figures are going I think
we would need to have a look at a longer-term view. I think it
would be premature at the moment to say that we have definitely
got a recognisable pattern of fall off. Traditionally the number
of cases always rises in the summer anyway. Even at the last administration
from a lower base there was a very recognisable summer peak and
I would not expect that to be any different now. We were talking
a moment or two ago about the delays and I know that there were
very severe delays. I tried to describe what we have done in order
to deal with those. At the moment we are managing to reply within
15 days, which is our departmental target, to 78 per cent of the
MPs' letters that we are getting. 78 per cent is not 100 per cent
and I do not view the figure with any complacency but the figures
have improved, I think, quite significantly recently.
27. So since the high peak in the summer
there has been a number of attempts to tackle the issue. You and
your Home Office colleagues have visited the relevant posts. You
have looked at various personnel problems. You have looked at
staffing complements. You have looked at the information technology
available. Is our Committee going to find itself within a reasonable
time facing a situation where most of the work has been done?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) I hope that
the Committee will find things have improved upon the very difficult
situation that Ms Abbott was describing over the course of last
year, but I do not think, if the implication of your question
is that it is alright, that is so and I do think that those of
us in Government do actually need the support and the advice of
the Committee about ways in which we can continue to improve the
service that we are giving. As Ms Abbott rightly says, you are
after all those who are dealing with these cases as MPs. I am
very conscious of the level of complaints there have been and
I think we have to keep up as much impetus as possible to seek
to improve the service to those who are applying for visas. I
have been to Delhi and to Islamabad. They are very different posts
and I think that those of you who are going on the trip, I do
not know if all the Sub-Committee is going, will find that they
are very different places to visit.
28. Can I move on to a question in terms
of staffing. It is probably fair to say that entry clearance work,
immigration work generally is not the most glamorous section of
an embassy. Are you conscious of this and what steps are taken,
if any, to rotate people and to ensure that people of the right
attitude find their way into those posts?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) I am very conscious
of the point that you make. I do not want to be party political
about this but I do think that under the previous administration
perhaps the issues surrounding entry visas were not given the
significance and priority that the new administration is trying
to give. When the Foreign Secretary made his mission statement,
he talked then about "mutual respect" in international
terms, and I think it is extraordinarily important that we remember
mutual respect is something that cuts at home as well. We are
talking here particularly about the British Indian and British
Pakistani communities and we do need to ensure that even if they
are getting refusals for the visas in which they have an interest,
they are assured that the system that is refusing is fair. It
may not always be the answer they want but it should be a fair
answer. You say it is not always seen as the most glamorous part
of the Foreign Office. One of the things, given my responsibilities,
I have been at pains to persuade the administration in the Foreign
Office is that this is a part of the real work of the Foreign
Office. This is a face, if you like, of public diplomacy. If you
get these things wrong in posts abroad it can do real damage to
the relationship with the country in which one is operating, as
I myself was told when I was in Islamabad very recently. The previous
Permanent Under Secretary was kind enough to write to posts and
tell them that this was now being given greater priority by the
new administration, which I was very pleased to see, and the Chief
Clerk (who is the Chief Administrator in the Foreign Office) has
also written round Foreign Office staff saying: "Do believe
us, this is not a Cinderella posting any more. Whatever happened
in the past, this is not a Cinderella posting and doing a period
in entry clearance is a good thing to do, a positive asset to
your career." I am very pleased about that. I think those
are messages from within the administration that are positive
in trying to get that over to people.
29. Brave words, but how will it actually
be reflected in postings in our promotions and so forth?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) It is very early
days to tell. These letters only went out before Christmas. What
we have seen is we have managed to plug some of the gaps particularly
in Islamabad that were worrying us and we have managed to fill
slots there and I hope that we will ensure that there is no longer
the traditional underlap between people leaving posts and new
people joining posts in the future but I do think that the messages
that have gone out on careers is an important message and one
that this Government fully endorses.
Chairman
30. That brings me to the next question.
You state in the memorandum that there is a need to brief entry
clearance staff more fully on the Government's statement of policy,
on the principles of a firm, fast and fair immigration policy
and on the importance of quality of service issues. Is there a
suggestion there that some staff may have been setting their own
agenda whilst in post and if that is the case where is the need
greatest to re-work the ethic and perhaps bring in further training?
Is it at entry clearance officer level or at the supervisory level?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) I think it is
at both levels, Chairman. You say "Do you think they have
been setting their own agenda?": this suggests too much of
a systemised, conspiratorial approach. I do think that they have
worked to what they have worked to for some time under a previous
administration. We have come in, our agenda has been put into
new parameters. I mentioned when I opened up, Chairman, the Foreign
Secretary's statement. It is on the basis of his statement that
we will need to make sure that we are getting the message across
properly to the ECOs and to the ECMs. I am concerned myself about
the training for ECMs which I still believe is somewhat on the
short side and I do think we need to get across rather more cogently
than we do at the moment what we expect of entry clearance officers
and the management.
31. So you think there is a need for more
training rather than just getting people to accept the new?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) Chairman, I
do think so. Training is always important. You cannot just issue
tablets of stone. If you really want to get the best out of people
when they are working, you have got to get them on board and train
them properly. You do not just issue edicts and think it is all
alright because you have put out a piece of paper, you have to
give them proper training and give people the proper tools to
do the job.
Mr Anderson
32. How do you tell someone who has an attitude
problem? Essentially an ECO is in a one-to-one relationship with
an applicant, and presumably the system is more ready to take
the views of the ECO rather than the complainant who has not had
what he or she wants.
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) Yes. You have
an appraisal system which is meant to deal with that problem.
The appraisal system is administered in the post by the ECMs and
then those who are supervising the ECMs. The problem will arise
if you identify problems at management level.
Ms Abbott
33. How easy is it to move people?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) It is easy to
move people, it is not always easy to get replacements. You have
to move people in a fair way. You cannot just parachute in and
take what might be seen as arbitrary or even tyrannical decisions
about individuals. You have to have the evidence upon which to
move people if you are moving them against their will. In a number
of these places of course the jobs are, as has been said, not
terribly popular and people might be all too willing to move.
The problem is then getting the replacements for them.
34. The point I am making is where you have
people dealing with the public and they, for whatever reasons,
are not properly trained, are not properly motivated, are not
properly managed, they can develop almost an adversarial relationship
with the public. I remember being a Saturday girl in shops as
a schoolgirl and you could quickly fall into that state of mind.
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) You were not
adversarial, were you!
35. Yes, because you begin to get adversarial
towards the people you are supposed to be helping because you
are not necessarily well paid or highly motivated or managed.
Then what you develop is an esprit de corps and in particular
contexts it can be quite a negative esprit de corps, and
sometimes it is not people breaking any rules it is just an esprit
de corps and a relationship with the public, and sometimes
the only way to break that up is to move people. You have not
given me the impression that you think that is easy to do.
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) I think you
have to be clear that you are moving the right people. I think
if you are clear it is relatively straight forward. I also think
that you cannot just leave it at that. You have to train people
properly to do the job. We talked a moment or two ago about acclimatising
people to the culture within which they are working and that is
a very important part of it too. But I do recognise what you are
saying about an adversarial esprit de corps, I think it
is a danger that we must always watch out for. After all, many
of these people are working in quite isolated conditions, in places
sometimes which are difficult to live in, and I do recognise the
danger which you illustrate.
Chairman
36. Could I ask one question on funding
issues and ask what effect the new basis of funding the entry
clearance operations, via offsetting visa fee income, has had
on running the operation? Is there not a risk the FCO loses out
if there is a sudden down-turn in applications, for instance,
or perhaps you are unable to get additional funds if there is
a sudden up-turn? Can I ask whether it is a problem and, if it
is a problem, whether it will disappear if the operation is put
on to a net running cost basis?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) Chairman, there
is that danger. I think the moment you have an up-turn, you have
to put in more people. We have had to take on these people whom
I have just spoken about in the correspondence unit, because we
have put up the complement in the way we have. These are resources
which come from elsewhere in the Foreign Office and necessarily,
of course, people then ask questions about that and it does make
life difficult. I am going to ask, if I may, Mr Clay to give you
a rather more detailed response on that.
(Mr Clay) Chairman, the problem with funding and
staffing entry clearance operations over many years has been that
demand for visas, in keeping with worldwide patterns of travel,
has been rising. New visa regimes have been imposed against additional
countries and the resources for staffing these additional and
new requirements have had to be at the expense of other Foreign
Office activity. That against a background of a decline in Foreign
Office funding in the last three years—2.8 per cent—and
a reduction in the numbers of staff, 23 per cent since 1980.[3]
This year, for the first time, we have the facility to retain
the income earned from visa fees and that immeasurably improves
our prospects of coping with the problems we encounter year on
year; it gives us more flexibility. Next year, we shall be moving
on to the net running cost regime and that will give us even more
flexibility. It does not remove from us the obligation to seek
Treasury agreement to spend additional resources when this is
necessary, but so long as we are earning the income from fees
in the year as a whole we have more confidence that we can cope
with increased or with different patterns of demand for visas
without this constraining our ability to do our other jobs as
well.
37. Are you happy with the costs of visa
applications? It has come to us in evidence from colleagues that
there is some concern that perhaps the fee is too high in certain
areas. Are you happy with the levels which are currently set?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) I think we know
that there is anxiety about the cost of our visas. We charge the
same for the visa service wherever it is throughout the world
and it is meant to be self-financing and not a call on the British
taxpayer. It may be that in some parts of the world it is seen
as being very high, but we do our best to spread the cost. I would
venture to suggest that in places, particularly those which are
far away, the actual cost of the visa as taken against the whole
of a visit is probably not as high as perhaps might at first be
seen.
Mr Anderson
38. In addition to the cost of the visa
bearing on a poor family, there is the additional factor of travelling
within the country because of the remoteness of some of the communities
from our High Commissions. The point is made frequently in relation
to the sub-continent, where people from the Punjab would find
it very onerous to have to pay the cost of travel as well. Does
this new funding regime prevent you doing that which you think
is warranted in terms of humanity, in making the system more customer-friendly
by, for example, setting up a post in the Punjab where initial
interviews might be held?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) We have looked
at that during the course of this last year because of representations
which were made. It simply was not cost effective to do it in
the course of the last year, but I do not think we have a closed
mind over that. I suspect you know the trend has been to concentrate
the posts which are visa entry points, but I am conscious of the
fact that many people do travel a long way in the way you suggest.
The alternative to opening up a post might be to look at a system
of clinics of people, that is ECOs and ECMs, going out of the
High Commissions to somewhere where there are a lot of people,
and Punjab is the obvious example where there might be the possibility
of running a clinic on a regular basis to look at entry clearance
issues.
39. I accept it is not cost effective but
that is not perhaps the relevant criteria. It is not cost effective
for Her Majesty's Government but it would be immensely cost effective
for the poor people involved.
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) Yes, I see that,
but we do have the responsibility to the taxpayer as well in this
country to run a cost effective regime. I accept it is a difficult
choice and there are balances to be made. I do not think we have
closed our minds on this issue. If I may say, you raised the question
of travel and one of the most difficult things is when people
travel to the High Commission only to find they have not got the
right documents and then they have to travel all over again. I
think one of the things we need to do is to be more user-friendly
in the way that we give people advice over the documents they
will need when applying for entry visas.
3 Note by witness: In the last five years funding
has decreased 12 per cent. Back
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