Examination of witnesses (Questions 40
- 59)
TUESDAY 27 JANUARY 1998
BARONESS SYMONS
OF VERNHAM
DEAN, MR
EDWARD CLAY
and MR RICHARD
WHITE
40. This can be done in the areas where
they live. There can be a preliminary examination to make sure
their tackle is in order before they have the main interview?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) Hence the suggestion
which, as I say I think is still worthy of consideration, about
having some sort of clinic or surgery or whatever you want to
call it, that we might want to look at in order to try to give
people that sort of help.
41. Barefoot ECOs around the villages?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) There is a thought.
Ms Abbott
42. Can we move on to Islamabad and Delhi
specifically. Why do Delhi and Islamabad have such high rates
of visa refusals, particularly visitors visas?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) I think there
is an historical pattern of immigration from the Indian sub-continent
to the United Kingdom. We know that there are strong and established
family ties and that the United Kingdom may act as a very strong
magnet for people who might want to come into this country for
economic reasons. I think one of the things that concerns me about
this is the lack of statistical evidence about what we might call
overstayers. You are right that the level of refusals is very
high from the Indian sub-continent when compared to the level
of refusals throughout the world. I believe the reason is because
the level of refusals reflects the concerns that the ECOs and
ECMs have, particularly for visitor cases, where the level is,
I think, twice as high as it is to the rest of the world, that
people will overstay and will try to circumvent the immigration
rules.
43. That is clear enough. Can I just ask
you one more question. In the memorandum that you sent us, paragraph
32, you made it clear that entry clearance managers must review
all refusals within 24 hours. That is obviously a very important
quality control thing, but one of the issues is not just the speed
of replies but the content of replies?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) Absolutely.
44. In Islamabad they refuse about 30 applications
for visitor visas and 12 applications for settlement visas a day.
How can entry clearance managers seriously review this number
of cases a day?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) There are four
entry clearance managers in Islamabad so when you look at that
on a case-by-case basis that means they will be looking at two
or three a day split up between them.
45. Do you think potentially it could have
a harmful effect on the relationship between entry clearance managers
and entry clear officers if they overturn decisions?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) What we do not
know is how much entry clearance managers do overturn decisions.
We have discussed this before, I know. Very often the decision
is not so much the ECO saying, "I have reached a final decision,
will you now endorse it?" to the entry clearance manager.
It is an ECO going to the entry clearance manager before a decision
is taken to ask for advice so that in effect the entry clearance
manager has an input into the decision and talks it through with
the ECO if the ECO feels that he or she is dealing with a marginal
case.[4]
Chairman
46. Can I bring you to questions of forgery,
particularly in relation to the Indian sub-continent, which you
referred to in your memorandum. First of all, is this a problem
elsewhere in the world other than the Indian sub-continent? Is
there any evidence or suggestion that this encourages staff to
have a presumption that documents in those areas are unreliable?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) Forgery is a
worldwide problem. I am sure if you went to Heathrow, you may
already have done this, I do not know, to talk to those who deal
with forgeries coming into Heathrow in terms of visas and passports,
you would see very quickly that it is a worldwide problem. It
is particularly prevalent in the Indian sub-continent but also
in West Africa. It is now becoming quite a serious problem with
regards to the Soviet Union. It is on the increase. There is a
growing demand for forged documents and having seen some of the
forgeries myself I have to say that some of them are done extraordinarily
skilfully. You have to have a very well-trained eye in order to
be able to spot forged documents. But it is undoubtedly on the
increase unfortunately worldwide.
47. Is this situation improved by the use
of airline liaison officers? Are there proposals to extend the
employment of these officers?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) I think it is.
I saw the airline liaison officer at work in Delhi and was very
impressed by the operation. One could always say they put on a
good show for the Minister but it just so happened that I was
going through the airport at a time when some forged passports
were being picked up and it caused great excitement. I would like
to see the coverage of the airline liaison officers widened because
I do think the fact they are there may not have a huge deterrent
effect but it does mean we are scrutinising documents and passports
in a rather more systemic way. The coverage is something I think
we would want to look at.
Mr Anderson
48. Would Islamabad and Delhi have one officer
on passports who has had a degree of scientific training in terms
of detecting forgeries?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) If I may, I
will send you a note on the training issue.[5]
There may well be some scientific training but it is the practised
eye that is the most effective.
49. Scotland Yard has some well-known scientific
means of detecting obvious forgeries.
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) I am sure that
there are ways that are scientific but there are also ways of
opening up passports and having a look at how pages have been
split. I do not know if you count that as being scientific. The
fact is that they are very sophisticated. I was fortunate enough
when I was in Delhi to talk to somebody in the Indian government
who was an expert in forgery and he made the point, which I think
is absolutely relevant here, that it is the forger who is the
real enemy of the legitimate traveller, the legitimate visitor.
And he was giving a talk to a number of personnel from the different
embassies and high commissions in Delhi on the effort that the
Indian Government is putting into stopping the racket in forgeries
that all the embassies and high commissions experience.
50. Given that forgery is clearly a constant
in both posts, why is the school of thought in respect of Delhi
so much better than the school of thought in respect of Islamabad?
In New Delhi, for example, the head teacher says something like
"efficient, well-managed and well-motivated", whereas
in Islamabad we are told the Islamabad staff are under constant
pressure to speed up and facilitate applications and it is an
"exceptionally difficult and stressful working environment".
What can the headmistress tell us about this?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) That is an interesting
way of looking at my role if I am the headmistress to whom you
refer. I think there is a number of different elements at work
in Islamabad. We had a very difficult time over the course of
the summer with the information technology system in Islamabad.
It was a nightmare. It broke down twice and broke down at the
most sensitive times, first of all in May and then again between
June and July.
51. Is that the whole story?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) That is not
the whole story. There are, I think, very considerable difficulties
in Islamabad; dealing with the influx there has been because of
re-applications because of the changes in primary purpose.
52. That is the same in Delhi. These are
all constants. What is the difference?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) I think there
are two other elements. I am not sure though that Islamabad did
not have more under primary purpose. The impression I have is
that Islamabad did have a greater influx than Delhi did as a result
of the changes in primary purpose, but I might be wrong on that.
There are two other elements which I think we have to bear in
mind. Without being too tendentious about it, I think there are
recognisable problems about the level of forgery and indeed corruption
in Islamabad. You will see this for yourselves when you are there.
I hope you have the opportunity of discussing the problems over
corruption, perhaps with people from other High Commissions and
other Embassies. I found it quite startling, what I was told,
not by our own people at all but by people from other High Commissions
and Embassies about the level of corruption with which they felt
they had to deal.
53. But decisions are made essentially by
UK-based officers.
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) I want to come
on to the last point, which is that I think there are real management
problems in Islamabad.
54. What is being done to address them?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) Chairman, I
have with me a paper which I would like to deal with at the end
of this session, on what you might call an action plan on Islamabad.
The reason I say at the end of this session, is that when we are
talking about a post, even one as busy as Islamabad, I rather
think some of the things I might say should not be said in public.
I do think the civil servants involved do have the right to expect
their employers to deal with them with the confidentiality that
an employee would normally expect of an employer. I hope the Sub-Committee
would recognise that.
Chairman: Very much
so. We would like the Committee now to go into private session
because we ourselves are under pressure of time in that we will
shortly be inquorate.
Asterisks in the following evidence denote that
all or part of a question, or answer thereto, has not been reported,
at the request of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and with
the agreement of the Sub-Committee.
Chairman
55. Lady Symons, you mentioned a document
you wished to refer to?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) I hope it has
been handed round. Mr Clay does reinforce what I said a moment
or two ago about the removal of primary purpose having much greater
impact in Islamabad than it did in Delhi.
56. One of the questions I meant to ask
you was whether people are turning up at entry clearance points,
having been refused under the previous Government, believing that
now under a change of government, even though they have been legitimately
refused in the past, they now feel they would be accepted under
the new regime, regardless of the new mission statement?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) I think that
is happening. Some of them will be, of course, because of primary
purpose being abolished, so some of them are quite right to come
back.
57. I was thinking further than the primary
purpose issue.
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) Yes, just on
the basis that we are going to be much more generous, yes, that
is happening.
58. Do you want to take us through the document?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) Could I say,
Chairman, before we actually start the document that clearly Islamabad
has been a particular problem for quite some time. Islamabad handles
about 2.78 per cent of all our applications. It actually accounts
for 32 per cent of the letters that I receive from MPs. You cannot
say there is a direct correlation but we always get more where
there are heavy refusals. However, I do think that is an interesting
point to put in front of you as something that needs to be looked
at. Before I turn to this can I also say that we have actually
got a Home Office consultant out in Islamabad at the moment, a
man called Stephen Harvey, who is looking at some of these management
problems which I did not elaborate upon but which I mentioned
a moment or two ago. We have also sent out staff inspectors who
are actually out there at the moment. Mr Clay has had a discussion
with them since they have been out there and I think has some
views on their preliminary findings. There should be no unavoidable
gaps in Islamabad. We have had gaps in Islamabad, what I referred
to a minute or two ago as the underlaps in staff, people leaving
and we have just not had others out there taking up the posts.
At one point we were five entry clearance officers short out of
a complement of 26 when we were at the height of our difficulties.
Mr Anderson
59. Because of the unpopularity of the post?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) Partly that,
yes, and partly because, as I said before, I think the previous
Government did not have the same emphasis on this and we have
had to be very clear with the administration about the importance
which we attach to this operation. What we have also got to remember,
and of course you will find this when you go out to Islamabad,
is that we are not just talking about Diplomatic Service staff
here, we are also talking about Immigration Service staff. * *
*
4 The FCO Memorandum (and the Minister's response)
should have made clear that refusals which carry no right of
appeal must be reviewed within 24 hours. Refusals which do
carry a right of appeal (eg in respect of settlement applications)
must be cleared with an Entry Clearance Manager before
the decision is made. On this basis Entry Clearance Managers in
Islamabad would normally each review about ten refusals a day. Back
5
See supplementary memorandum, p. 32. Back
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