Examination of witnesses (Questions 60
- 73)
TUESDAY 27 JANUARY 1998
BARONESS SYMONS
OF VERNHAM
DEAN, MR
EDWARD CLAY
and MR RICHARD
WHITE
60. Is the proportion of IS and FCO people
different?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) They are half
and half. I do not know if they are half and half in Delhi, yes
they are, and they certainly are in Islamabad.
61. One cannot claim there was a difference
in terms of there being more IS staff proportionately in one post
compared to the other?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) I do not think
you can. Chairman, when you say it is private, how far does the
record of this meeting go?
Chairman
62. I will take advice on that from the
Clerk. We take a full verbatim record just as if you were in public
session. That will then come to us and be treated as a confidential
document. We will send a copy to you to invite you to suggest
what, if any, of it you feel can be published. We will come to
an agreement on that and publish so much of it as you feel should
be published.
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) * * *
Ms Abbott
63. As we are in private, what I understand
to be the case, and I may be wrong and colleagues who visit may
find something different, is that you have these entry clearance
officers who have what I politely describe as an esprit de
corps but other people have described rather more bluntly
as their attitude to the population they are supposed to be serving
as entry clearance officers is one of "keeping Pakis out".
When, at First Secretary level, I believe, steps were made to
move their manager, they rose in rebellion because their manager
thinks like them. Esprit de corps is a marvellous way of
describing what you have there. How are a few management consultants
and training sessions going to alter their very fixed view of
the world? That is why I asked about moving people. They may be
doing everything technically correct but they have an attitude
to Pakistani people coming in, and you can only shake that up
by moving people around.
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) I think you
have put it in much starker terms than I have put it.
64. Because we are in private.
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) I do not think
what you are saying is true.
65. Fine.
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) I do not think
there is a view out there which is, "Let's keep them out".
I think you can say that there may be something which operates
like something of a negative esprit de corps and is unhelpful,
but I do not think that necessarily manifests itself in quite
the stark way that you have indicated. Mike O'Brien and I talked
to the entry clearance officers for quite some time——
66. They are not going to talk to you like
that, are they?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) * * *
67. I do not know, this is what I have heard.
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) It is actually
quite a difficult, subtle thing to manage, but the problem comes
back to how you manage it. This is what you were trying to urge
me to say a moment or two ago and I was reluctant to say when
there were other people in the room because we are talking about
a limited number of managers and it would be very easy to identify
the people.
Mr Anderson
68. How long is the posting of the managers?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) The posting
of managers varies. It might be two or three years, ideally it
is three years.
69. But if there is a problem you send out
some of your best people?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) * * * We have
to change the training. We have to get those you can work with
on board to do the job they are meant to do as honestly and as
well as many of them are prepared to do. You cannot get the idea
immediately that they are all a load of rotten apples, they are
not. Frankly, Ms Abbott did jump in too quickly with me there.
I think both Mike O'Brien and I were very concerned but we both
recognised that there were some good apples to work with out there
and that they needed to be helped and they needed to be helped
by a stronger management. I do not think the management out there
was in any way part of some major conspiracy or even a negative
esprit de corps * * *
Chairman
70. Did the ones who divided against each
other break down across any organisations such as diplomatic as
against immigration or local as against UK-based?
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) I would be interested
in what your analysis of this is. I had thought maybe it did split
immigration staff/diplomatic service, but I could not actually
say that it was as clear cut as that. * * *
71. The Clerk has drawn to my attention
that we are inquorate. All that remains for me is to thank you
and your colleagues for giving up time this afternoon to come
and answer questions in this formal evidence session. There are
some questions which remain outstanding. Perhaps I could suggest
that we write to you with the questions which we would still like
an answer to. I will remind you of the questions earlier where
we asked for some facts and figures, if those were available,
and perhaps we might consider a further evidence session if time
allows after the Sub-Committee has made its visit. Thank you for
your attendance here today and that of your two colleagues. I
draw the meeting to a close.
(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean) Thank you very
much.
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