Examination of witnesses (Questions 20 - 35)
THURSDAY 19 MARCH 1998
MR TONY
LLOYD, MP and MR
PETER RICKETTS
Mr Heath
20. It is high on the agenda of the State
Department.
(Mr Lloyd) High on the agenda and
it parallels the priority we have ourselves.
21. Can I pick up one of the international
groupings that has been engaged in this problem which is the meeting
of the South Eastern European nations, I am not sure it has an
official name yet, headed by Bulgaria and they have taken a decision
to form a rapid response force which might be available. Can you
confirm whether that is the case and, if so, what is the intention?
(Mr Lloyd) I
cannot give that to the Committee.
Mr Ross
22. Could you check that out and if you
find anything you may be able to pass it on to the Committee.
(Mr Lloyd) I
will certainly make sure we will write to the Committee if there
is anything substantive to say about that.
Mr Ross: I would
like to turn to the situation on the ground itself. We have heard
earlier or we have been advised of one or two things that have
been happening. We want to look specifically at what it is possible
for us to do on the ground itself. Mr Heath?
Mr Heath
23. One thing I am interested in is the
position of the UNPREDEP forces on the Macedonian border. Is it
the British Government's view that the mandate should be extended
in temporal terms and possibly also in area terms as well into
Kosovo itself?
(Mr Lloyd) In
temporal terms it most certainly is the case that one of the conclusions
of the Contact Group is, if you will forgive me, Mr Ross, I will
read it: "The Contact Group recommends that consideration
be given to adapting the current UNPREDEP mandate, and would support
the maintenance of an international military presence on the ground
in the FYROM when the current mandate of UNPREDEP expires."
Obviously the Contact Group can only advise because it is a United
Nations organisation and clearly at that stage it is not appropriate
for the Contact Group to trespass on the United Nations' own role.
However, I think it does speak for itself. The fact that a group
comprising the United States, Britain, France, Germany, Italy
and Russia in coming to this conclusion and is speaking with a
degree of authority and commitment, particularly to a continued
international military presence, is unambiguous. So I hope that
answers the first part of Mr Heath's question. In terms of the
presence in Kosovo, it clearly is the case that military presence
within the boundaries of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia could
only be done with the agreement of the authorities in Belgrade.
At the moment I have to say to the Committee there is no discussion
of that kind of role. There would be real questions about what
the role would be anyway but certainly the commitment on the Macedonian
side of the border is clear.
24. You confirmed earlier in a reply the
information we had received elsewhere that there is relatively
little movement of refugees at the moment and that which has happened
is to Montenegro rather than across the Macedonian border or the
Albanian border. Clearly that could change if there were a widening
of the conflict. Has UNPREDEP clear instructions as to what is
to happen to any significant movement of refugees into the former
Yugoslavia, into the Republic of Macedonia, whether they are to
be collected in a border area or allowed entry to the rest of
Macedonia?
(Mr Lloyd) I
am going to look to Mr Ricketts for specific advice on this but
it is not a role for UNPREDEP to corral people in that sense.
(Mr Ricketts) The Minister is right,
the UNPREDEP mandate is effectively to monitor the border and
report developments rather than take a direct operational hand
at this stage. There is a reference in the Contact Group's report
of adapting the current UNPREDEP mandate and that is something
which is under discussion with the UN Secretariat in New York
but the present mandate is, I think, rather limited in its scope.
25. Moving on from that to what is happening
in Kosovo at the moment there clearly is a danger that there has
been a widespread radicalisation of the local population. Although
the KLA is relatively small in numbers now it may have much broader
support than it has had hitherto. Does the British Government
have direct lines of communication with Dr Rugova and are there
any actions that can be taken to support the democratic forces
at work in Kosovo?
(Mr Lloyd) There
is no doubt in my mind, and this is a point I made to President
Milutinovic and Foreign Minister Jovanovic, that the force that
most significantly radicalises Albanian opinion is the excessive
violence used by the security forces in Kosovo in recent weeks.
The way of defusing that radical tension is to enter into a serious
attempt to look for a peaceful negotiating settlement and that
has gone. That has been the message that we are giving consistently
to all sides on this. Specifically, in answer to the question
about Dr Rugova, the Foreign Secretary spoke directly with Dr
Rugova when he was in Belgrade. Subsequent to that there has been
a further letter from the Foreign Secretary to Dr Rugova summarising
that conversation but also updating Dr Rugova about the British
government's position and the European Union Presidency's position
since that time. So, yes, we do have contact. I would be a little
uncertain as to how and what our role would be in trying to strengthen
the moderate Albanians in direct terms, very simply making the
situation not better but worse. I think the way we strengthen
the moderates is by making sure that the message is very clear
about what the limitations that support the international community
really are all about. It is for an end to violence, it is for
autonomy for the Kosovar Albanians, it is for cessation. That
message has got to be given consistently and clearly so there
is no ambiguity in the minds of the international community, but
actually more importantly, no ambiguity in the minds of the Kosovar
Albanians. I think that clear framework, that we are not sponsors
of any side, we stand for certain basic values, is the most important
thing we can give in supporting those who want, the so-called
moderates, those Albanians who want to negotiate a settlement.
26. Finally, if the worst happens, if there
is no end to the repressive violence on the part of Mr Milosevic
in the next few days, you have explained the mechanics of what
happens next, the Contact Group meeting of ministers. What are
the options which the British government will be pursuing as a
response to that? Clearly, there are sanctions which are not yet
in place. There is a possibility perhaps of a slight widening
of sanctions to hit the Yugoslav government directly. For instance,
I gather Mr Milosevic says there are bank accounts in Cyprus which
might be attacked. Are there options which the British government
see as realistic options for applying pressure which could be
applied as a result of the Contact Group ministers' meeting?
(Mr Lloyd) The
initial response in any case has already been discussed and taken
on board by the Contact Group, which is the question of an assets
freeze. That is already there and explicit. I think what I would
say to Mr Heath beyond that is we recognise that we need to work
to maintain the spirit of cohesion in the international community.
The most immediate next step is to look at a freeze on assets
that are in the ownership of Yugoslavia but held outside of Yugoslavia.
That has already been discussed. It is already clearly and explicitly
on the agenda and it is known in Belgrade. It probably would not
help the Committee at all me trying to speculate on where else
the Contact Group and the international community more generally
might want to move if we have to take further action, I have got
to express the hope that we do not have to, but Belgrade does
need to move now very rapidly because time virtually has run out.
The clear message is that if we have to take further action then
that will be taken. I think the best thing I can say to the Committee
is that at this stage clearly there has been no decision on what
is ruled out because our seriousness of purpose means we will
examine all practical steps at whatever stage they become appropriate.
Mr Ross
27. Just before we move on to the broader
perspectives. As part of our determination to help build the civil
society, I know that we have done quite a bit of work in helping
the independent media in the area and I wonder if you have got
any information you could share with us on what we have managed
to do, I am thinking specifically of B92, and also whether you
are aware of any contact that there has been between the student
movement in Kosovo and the student movement in the rest of the
Federal Republic in order to try and build some coalitions?
(Mr Lloyd) In
terms of the media in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, we have
been concerned and are concerned that the media is still very
controlled. For example, the statement coming out of the Contact
Group has included specific reference to the International Criminal
Tribunal on the former Yugoslavia; there is almost no coverage
in Yugoslavia itself. I raised this with both the Foreign Minister
and the Serbian President. The Serbian President expressed astonishment
at the fact that I could think this was an act of government policy.
I merely record that for the Committee's benefit. The simple truth
is that whilst the government in Belgrade refers to a wide number
of newspapers, particularly, there is a significant number of
radio stations, very few of those are news reporting channels
and of those that are, the single most important one is state-run
television. It is in the light of that that the British government
has supported B92 and it has also been supported by the Westminster
Foundation for Democracy. Our support has gone essentially through
the BBC but, nevertheless, it is practical support by the British
government for B92, because it is independent, it has been prepared
to put forward unpalatable truths to people in Yugoslavia with
perhaps more unpalatable truths as far as the Federal and the
Serbian government goes. Our support has been practical in a number
of ways. It has allowed them to continue to operate at times when
without that support they would not have been able to operate,
and it is our intention to continue to make sure that there is
access to what is still a too limited independent system but nevertheless
is an independent system and therefore is worthy of precisely
that kind of support.
28. Mr Ricketts, I wonder if you are aware
of any contact between the student movements in the various parts
of Kosovo and the Federal Republic?
(Mr Ricketts) The
Foreign Secretary met a number of the Albanian student leaders
when he was in Belgrade two weeks ago. On that occasion they did
not discuss links between Albanian student leaders and those in
the rest of the Federal Republic. I am not aware that that is
an active subject. If I might just add one extra point to the
Minister's response on the media. We made public yesterday our
concern at threats against the independent media for their reporting
of events in Kosovo and we have put publicly on record our concern
that the independent media have been subject to threats for the
objective coverage they have been giving.
(Mr Lloyd) In terms of students and
student activity, when I was in Yugoslavia some weeks ago now
I did meet with some of the Albanian student leaders and the student
leaders on the Serb side and it certainly is true that there are
voices that recognise that there has to be proper dialogue, intra-ethnic
dialogue, and there may well be a role for the students, but I
have also got to record that whilst that may sound hopeful, the
other side of it is there have been student demonstrations on
the student side where the placards have been quite horrendous
in their threats to the Albanians, and I think we have to recognise
that we cannot look to students automatically as being unreservedly
on the side of progress and we must condemn students along with
anybody else when they incite violence, when they incite hatred.
Mr Ross: On behalf
of the Committee, could I join in expressing with the Foreign
Office our concern over any attempt to interfere with the free
media. Wearing another hat, as Chairman of the Board of Governors
of the Westminster Foundation, we would be very concerned if there
was any attempt made to interfere with B92. Could we just, finally,
move into the area of broader perspectives and ask Dr Norman Godman
to move on.
Mr Godman
29. Minister, you mentioned earlier that
you were concerned, rightly and properly, with the need to guarantee
the autonomy of the Albanian people of this blighted place. In
the short run you and your colleagues are concerned with ending
violence. You obviously want to see the removal of the special
police units. Again, you mentioned the legitimate need to bring
to justice those guilty of the murders of Albanians. In order
to satisfy the needs and aspirations of these people plans have
to be made for their future, have they not, and I know we are
only in the tenth day, Minister, but what questions do you think
ought to be discussed by the representatives of the Contact Group
in terms of implementation of the guarantees of the autonomy of
the Albanian people? Do you, for example, see the setting up of
a regional assembly based upon some form of proportional representation,
an open educational system (and it is an impoverished province
we know) but what of an open labour market? In Northern Ireland
where we are talking about parity of esteem, equality of educational
and occupational opportunities, we are talking about the creation
of an assembly and so on and so forth. Do you see the need to
implement such changes in Kosovo?
(Mr Lloyd) I
made the point earlier on to the Committee and if I can simply
restate this, we do not intend to become a party to the specifics
of the negotiation. I do not think that is helpful. The final
form of agreement has to be one that is accepted and endorsed
by the two communities. That would be the first thing to say.
I think the second thing that is perhaps worth recording for the
Committee is that one of our preoccupations has got to be that
whilst 90 per cent of Kosovo is now ethnically Albanian, the corollary
to that is that ten per cent is essentially ethnically Serb and
they also have rights and that is the spirit of Mr Godman's question,
that there has to be, we recognise, rights built in for all the
citizens of Yugoslavia living in Kosovo. That is absolutely right
for both communities and that is an important principle. There
is already an education agreement which is already being implemented
to a degree through the ordinary schools system. It is in the
higher education area that it is not being properly operationalised.
We have called consistently for the education agreement to be
brought into practice. We understand that, and certainly this
was what I was talking in Belgrade about last week, that the authorities
in Belgrade now accept the need to move forward on that and claim
that they are making significant progress. We hope that we might
know literally within some hours where that education agreement
is going. It would be a single step forward because in properly
moving forward the education agreement it would be the first bankable
sign of good faith by the authorities in Belgrade. Its significance
is large. In terms of the mechanics of the democratic system,
I think Mr Godman will have to forgive me if I do not want to
get drawn into the precise form of the electoral system, we have
enough troubles coming up in, if I can lapse into a Party mode,
Mr Ross, because I am not here for that, our own Party discussing
those things without wanting to wax eloquent on the situation
in Kosovo. Clearly what we will be looking for is that there is
a structure that adequately allows for representative governments
on behalf of the ethnic Albanians whilst recognising the rights
of what will be within the limited area of Kosovo a significant
non-Albanian minority.
30. There has to be a range of objectives
in the short to medium-term and long-term objectives. It would
be marvellous to achieve a ceasefire, but we have to move on from
such a ceasefire. We have seen how fragile such moments can be
elsewhere. It seems to me that if the United Nations does become
involved, this resolution you referred to that is being passed
around informally amongst members of the Security Council, then
that resolution would surely seek to implement these medium-term
and long-term objectives.
(Mr Lloyd) Perhaps I can clarify
that. The resolution before the Security Council is specific and
it arises out of the Contact Group's statement, it is specific
to an arms embargo. There is no attempt to go beyond that at this
point within the Security Council. Mr Godman's question touches
on what are the ways that progress has got to take place. We may
not have an exact atlas in front of us, but we have got a pretty
good idea of what the major directions are. There does need to
be a renunciation of violence, that is absolutely right and that
is a prize in itself that is significant and tangible. We have
called for proper access via the Red Cross. That is specific and
tangible and gives real protection simply by the Red Cross presence.
We do want to see progress in terms of the International Criminal
Tribunal. That would be important. We would want to see a proper
investigation of the deaths that took place because those are
all interlinked in terms of giving security and that the cessation
of violence is actually not simply the temporary stopping of bullets
but the signal of a more permanent movement to non-violence. That
would be the first thing. Secondly, the education agreement is
very important. It has been a long-running sore. The University
of Pristina which once housed a phenomenal 50,000 students has
been closed now for the last four years and it simply does not
operate. To get that back in operation is not just a symbol, it
would be a very practical thing in its own right about building
the capacity of the people in the Kosovo region. Beyond that,
we need to see people sat round the negotiating table. We do need
to see a commitment to a negotiation process without precondition,
albeit within the framework that I have already expressed. I think
if we saw those measures we would already have made tangible and
remarkable progress because meaningful negotiations taking place
would indicate that there was a determination to resolve the long-running
problems in Kosovo and that could only take place in a period
where the immediate and pressing problems had dissipated to allow
those negotiations to take place. We know the direction which
we have got to go in and that is what we will be pushing for.
31. I am grateful to you, Minister, for
those very helpful responses. My concern is the anxiety of the
ethnic Albanians who may say, understandably, "This is precisely
what we want, a ceasefire, we want these special police units
taken out of our province. What happens to us once the international
community turns its gaze away from us?" I accept the role
that you and your colleagues play in our Foreign Office. Do you
anticipate a mediator of international reputation coming in to
lead those negotiations? I am not saying there are similarities
between Northern Ireland, but, nevertheless, Senator Mitchell
has played a very important role with his two international colleagues
in the development of the talks in Northern Ireland. Do you anticipate
an international mediator chairing negotiations or helping to
develop and helping the Albanians and the Serbs to acknowledge
the need for this autonomy and the guaranteeing of this autonomy?
(Mr Lloyd) I
think the first thing I should say is that yes, we do recognise
very strongly the Albanian demand for an end to violence from
the state authorities. That is clearly a precondition to progress
in any other area. I think it is fair that I do place on record
the fact that there is another precondition which is that we do
see an end to violence by the Albanians because we have and will
continue to condemn terrorism by those claiming to represent the
Albanians just as much as we will condemn violence by the state
authorities. There cannot be any doubt on that. That is not trying
to strike a position of balance, it is trying to strike a position
consistent with what we ought to be doing, a condemnation of violence
from any quarter. In terms of the question that Mr Godman raises
with me, there are parallels—and like all parallels we should
not push them so far—with Northern Ireland and, in actual
fact, when I was told by President Milutinovic last week that
this was an internal affair, the United Kingdom would not consider
allowing any international dimension in the affairs of Northern
Ireland, I did point out to him that, of course, former Senator
George Mitchell had played a significant and crucial role in developments
there and urged him to examine precisely the sense of that approach.
Felipe Gonzalez, the former Spanish Prime Minister, as I have
already told the Committee, now has this double mandate, one from
the OSCE, one from the European Union with respect to Kosovo.
We believe he can play that role of catalyst in hopefully trying
to bridge the undeniable gaps that exists with the as now stated
position of the different parties in Kosovo and we would urge
that both the representatives of the Albanians as well as the
authorities in Belgrade should recognise that Felipe Gonzalez
does not represent a threat or challenge, he represents part of
a package that can lead to a solution. So we want to see that
international mediation playing that role.
Sir Peter Emery
32. I wanted to come back to the point about
refugees in this country. I do not know whether you know, but
the Belgian Commissioner, Ritt Bjerregaard, at the European Union
led a delegation of the parliamentary assembly of OSCE to Kosovo
which I was a member of three and a half years ago, but she is
very concerned with that, so if you were looking for somebody
of some particular interest that may be a piece of information
you will have. If you have not, you now have! The second point
really does not affect you directly, but there has been a considerable
increase of young unaccompanied Albanian speaking asylum persons
coming from Kosovo, usually between the age of 15 and 18, increasing
numbers fleeing from their homes and they are granted either refugee
status or leave to remain in this country. Most of them speak
no English, they have no knowledge or experience of the complex
system they have to meet when they get here, they are entirely
dependent on Social Security, they are usually placed in pretty
sub-standard accommodation, but the International Social Services
have set up a programme to help them in the learning of English,
in fitting up a kitchen to teach them to cook because most of
them do not have any of that knowledge of having to look after
themselves, and a programme of education and of sport and a number
of other things. This is very limited funding. I do not believe
anything actually is coming directly from government. International
Social Services, I am sure you know, is usually entirely charitable
money. Might I suggest, as the success of this does seem to be
that these young people are becoming able to be living in the
community, actually fitting into a school where they were being
rejected initially, I ask the Director of International Social
Services to write to you on this matter and you could make certain
that it was dealt with in the right way because we are not talking
about large sums of hundreds of thousands, we are talking perhaps
of £20,000 or £30,000, something like that. The reason
that I happen to know a great deal about it I suppose is, I have
to declare a partial interest, that my wife is the UK Chairman
of International Social Services, so I know this problem exists
and it is something the British government might well want to
do something to assist.
(Mr Lloyd) I
am grateful, Mr Ross, to Sir Peter for both those points. I did
not know about the OSCE Parliamentary delegation, although I think
it does underline the fact that the situation in Kosovo has been
a problem that has been waiting if not to explode at least to
hit the headlines of the world. I think it ought to remind us
all of the need to act now so that we are not back here in three
and a half years again to discuss it once more. That certainly
is our view, that now is the time to push all sides very hard
towards the kind of negotiating solution that is needed. In terms
of the question of International Social Services and the role
of refugees, clearly I would still hope that we can reach a situation
where there is no major movement of the peoples and that it is
not necessary to activate emergency services on a larger scale
than already exists in the way Sir Peter has described. I certainly
will be very happy to exchange correspondence and have dialogue
with the Chairman.
Mr Ross
33. In conclusion, the Foreign Secretary
has made it plain in his pronouncements on Kosovo that the international
community has a legitimate right and duty to condemn such gross
violations of human rights. I think the Committee would like you
to convey to the Foreign Secretary our pleasure at the speed and
determination in which he and the Department have actually pursued
this. Are these condemnations made and actions taken over Kosovo
purely specific to the particular situation or can we expect a
similar response to analogous situations in other parts of the
world?
(Mr Lloyd) It
clearly is the case that in all walks of life the charge is made
of double standards and I must tell you that President Milosevic
frequently charges double standards. I think I can try to give
the Committee this assurance, that whilst I have no doubt, perhaps
I should not admit this, occasionally governments do get things
wrong, we will do our best to ensure that we apply the same principles
to different situations wherever. There might be different solutions,
but the underlying principles ought to be there. That is what
I think we were striving to achieve. It will give me considerable
pleasure to relay the Committee's congratulations to the Foreign
Secretary and perhaps in a moment of absolute sycophancy let me
simply record my own considerable respect for the way the Foreign
Secretary handled the meeting of the Contact Group in London and
his own role in this which has been, I think, very important in
giving clear signals to all concerned that the international community
is not only apprised of the situation, we intend to act in a way
that will act to resolve the problem.
Sir Peter Emery: I
do not necessarily think congratulations on my side would necessarily
help the position of the Foreign Secretary, but I would certainly
say that we thoroughly support the action that he has taken with
the Contact Group and we would support further action on his behalf.
Mr Heath
34. If I could make that all sides of the
House. I think the Contact Group went further and with greater
despatch than we expected and I am very pleased about that.
(Mr Lloyd) Thank you for that. To
have that common purpose here in our Parliament is important for
our government. I am grateful for those remarks.
Mr Ross
35. I thought I was speaking for the Committee,
but I am certainly pleased to hear my colleagues follow that up.
Can I just say, Minister, that we stand ready to help in any way
you think might be useful. Thank you for clearing your diary to
come to see the Committee. I know that you have just got back
into the country on Wednesday morning. We are very appreciative
of that given that you have hardly had time to empty your suitcase
before you are off for ten days in Africa. We really do appreciate
the time you have given us and the fact that you have been able
to respond so positively and we wish you well.
(Mr Lloyd) Thank you.
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