Examination of Witnesses (Questions 568 - 579)
THURSDAY 16 JULY 1998
RT
HON ROBIN
COOK, MP,
MR MICHAEL
ARTHUR, CMG
and MR ROBERT
MACAIRE
Chairman
568. Foreign Secretary, may I welcome you
again to the Committee. You will be aware that today we begin
the first part of the compromise arrangement reached between the
Committee and yourself. Under this a summary of the telegrams
which we have sought in relation to Sierra Leone will be available
to Members of the Committee on a confidential basis, with Members
of the Committee visiting the Foreign and Commonwealth Office
to verify the accuracy of that summary. Hence, today's session
will be part public and part private according to the arrangement
which we have reached relating to those telegrams. You have indicated
to the Committee that you have to leave for the Cabinet at 10.15
or so.
(Mr Cook) 10.20.
569. So time is limited. We will therefore
need to make as much progress as we can. There are one or two
other matters which will need to be raised in the open and public
part of the session. Perhaps you will first introduce your colleague
before I call Dr Godman to raise the first question.
(Mr Cook) The colleague with me at the table is
Michael Arthur who is Director of Resources. I was advised that
the Committee may wish to ask about the outcome of the Comprehensive
Spending Review, and indeed I am bound to say that it would be
rather odd if we had this hearing with me this week without me
discussing such an important matter to the future of the Foreign
Office. Mr Arthur has been responsible for steering me through
the shoals of figures and the negotiations that we have had over
the last two or three months. For the closed session I will be
joined by Mr Robert Macaire. Mr Macaire had the duty of summarising
the telegrams and I anticipated the Committee might find it as
helpful as I for him to be present.
570. What is his rank within the FCO, his
position?
(Mr Cook) We value greatly all our staff but Mr
Macaire himself is not a head of department, he is a desk officer.
571. Within the West Africa Department?
(Mr Cook) No. We set up a small unit to handle
the volume of questions that we are receiving on Legg, Sandline
and Sierra Leone and they are decentralised to Mr Macaire and
one other officer.
Dr Godman
572. Foreign Secretary, you will be telling
us, I suppose, that you are reasonably happy or satisfied with
the Comprehensive Spending Review.
(Mr Cook) Reasonably happy, yes; never satisfied.
I do not think even the Secretaries of State for Health and Education
would be satisfied, we always have great ambitions. Happy, yes.
The outcome of the Comprehensive Spending Review for the Foreign
Office fully protects us against inflation and gives us an increase
which is in line with the average increase across Government departments,
excluding health and education which for policy reasons we are
focusing larger increases on. I think I am right in saying—Mr
Arthur can correct me if I stray—that the average increase
across all our four votes is about two per cent over the three
years, over the diplomatic wing it is about one and a half per
cent and this allows for the fact that we have put a particularly
large increase of 3.4 per cent per annum into the BBC World Service.
This is the biggest real terms increase which the Foreign Office
has actually received for many years. In the course of the last
Parliament its financial resources went down 21 per cent. It has
been warmly welcomed throughout the Service because it ends a
period of decline of resources and will enable us actually to
look at some areas of expansion. Particular areas of expansion
which I am anxious to pursue are in the new countries of Central
and Eastern Europe which are the applicant countries to the European
Union where it is very important that we build on the excellent
goodwill we have achieved during the British Presidency for the
competent and supportive way in which we have launched the enlargement
negotiations. We will then also be looking at areas of commercial
opportunity. One in particular where we are very badly resourced
at the present time is in the Caspian Basin which will meet ten
per cent of the world's additional oil demand in a decade's time.
At the present time we have only got 13 people in the total of
the Central Asian Caspian countries. That compares with 99 for
Germany. In two of the countries we have no representation at
all. The useful uplift we have had in our budget will enable us
to address that very bad weakness.
573. I do not have a platoon of researchers
analysing these figures for me but it has been put to me that
there are staffing and post implications in the 0.8 per cent drop
in real growth in the years 2000-01 and 2001-02. Is it not the
case that those figures reveal a real terms increase only in the
year 1999-2000?
(Mr Cook) As a real terms increase over the three
year period, you are right that it is front loaded and frankly
we need that front loading. One of the biggest pressures I have
at the present time is the need to improve our IT. We have a very
serious IT problem which I inherited at the Foreign Office and
indeed it is not millennium compliant. We have a potential nightmare
facing us in the year 2000. That is why it is urgent that we do
spend more on IT in that early year.
(Mr Arthur) Thank you, Chairman. Just one point
or comment on the minus 0.8 that Dr Godman mentioned. There are
two different ways of calculating real uplift. Minus 0.8 is a
year on year calculation and, as the Foreign Secretary says, there
is a big rise in year one. There is, in real terms measured against
a standard base line of this year uplifted for inflation, still
a real rise in both years two and three. But because the graph
becomes flatter the change becomes, year on year, negative in
year three.
574. One last question. I questioned Sir
John Kerr on the cost of the new embassy in Moscow. At £81
million pounds I suggested it was going to cost a hell of a lot
more than the new Scottish Parliament. He did not seem much concerned
about that comparison between the Parliament and the embassy.
I am pleased to hear about the recruitment of staff along the
Caspian Sea. I think that is good news. Given what Gordon Brown
said in his statement: "Perhaps the most important advantage
of conducting a Comprehensive Spending Review is the opportunity
it allows for individual services to put in place a substantial
reallocation of resources within departments", how are you
going to change the hierarchy of the Foreign Office? There is
the perceived view that it is staffed by Oxbridge classicists
who have not had much contact with the real world.
(Mr Cook) I think I am going to have to enter
a reserve on the last phrase. The people in the Foreign Office
are of high calibre, of high quality and of high dedication. I
would say, in fairness to them, that I have been refreshingly
pleased by the enthusiasm with which they have accepted new agendas
from the new Government and have worked to implement them. I think
also many of those within the service recognise that the management
of the service has to modernise, has to move with the times. Over
the last year we have been addressing the question of whether
or not we really are representative of the modern Britain. In
particular I have brought in Whitehall's first Ethnic Minorities
Liaison Officer who has had considerable success and the last
recruitment round showed a doubling of applications from Africans
and from ethnic communities within Britain. There is a long way
still to go in order to make sure that the Foreign Office is open,
is accessible and is modern in its management methods. Some of
the issues that are now addressed, first of all, can we achieve
more interchange with the private sector, people seconded out
and seconded in, would that help to open up the culture; secondly
we have, as I have said, some extremely bright, able people in
the Foreign Office, do we really——
575. With different ethnic backgrounds?
(Mr Cook) At the present time, we are unquestionably
under-represented in some of the ethnic communities which make
up modern Britain which is why I have embarked on the programme
I have to address that issue. Also, we are very short on gender
balance at the top. There are no women in the very top ranks of
management at the Foreign Office and there is only a single figure
number of women who are Heads of Missions. That is an issue that
will need to be addressed over time. Also, I do want to make sure,
as with modern management methods in the private sector, there
is opportunity for able and bright people in the Foreign Office
to show initiative, that not all decisions are handed down and
that will mean that we need to look at whether or not we are promoting
fast enough on merit. I was quite interested to discover that
there are only half a dozen ambassadors around the world who are
as young as the Prime Minister of Britain so maybe that point
is something that needs to be addressed.
Dr Godman: One final
question and then I will wrap up for the moment.
Chairman: I think
we must move on.
Dr Godman: Okay. Calm
down you will get your chance.
Chairman: Foreign
Secretary, colleagues have perhaps one question or so on the Comprehensive
Spending Review. Ernie?
Mr Ross: I am sorry,
Chairman, it is not very often we get the Foreign Secretary here.
We simply cannot have the person who is responsible for Britain's
foreign policy here and not raise with him the questions that
have been raised with us. I apologise to you, Foreign Secretary,
I know you are anxious to get on to the main business this morning.
I want to ask you about the Comprehensive Spending Review with
regard to the BBC World Service and the British Council. Just
as importantly, on Friday a conference taking place to perhaps
establish the International Criminal Court will come to a conclusion,
and our offices have been inundated with messages that it may
not come to a conclusion. I am sure you are aware of the fact
why it might not come to that conclusion. I think we have to ask
you what do you think about that? The fact of the matter is if
you do not establish an International Criminal Court we are going
to be literally held responsible by many organisations, many individuals,
and if one thinks about the aftermath of Sierra Leone there may
well be individuals who we want to bring to justice. Part of the
problem with Rwanda is the fact that some of those people who
committed some of the worst atrocities have not been brought to
justice and that is because we do not have the court except the
specific one for Rwanda. I do want to come back to the BBC World
Service and the British Council within the context of the Comprehensive
Spending Review but can I ask you as quickly as you can to explain
to us why we have got ourselves into a situation where we have
seen at least NGOs are suggesting to us as individual Members
of Parliament that we seem to be not sabotaging but making it
more difficult for us to come to conclusions where there might
well be the establishment of an International Criminal Court?
Chairman
576. Foreign Secretary, we will have that
one on the International Criminal Court, one on the World Service
and then we must make progress on Sierra Leone.
(Mr Cook) I am happy to answer what questions
are put to me, Chairman. On the International Criminal Court,
it is a very serious moment in the development of the International
Criminal Court because the Rome Conference is due to finish tomorrow.
If it finishes without agreement then we are not in a position
to take forward the International Criminal Court. It is very much
the policy of this Government to give strong support to the setting
up of the International Criminal Court precisely for the reason
Mr Ross alluded to. At the present time we are creating ad hoc
tribunals wherever there has been genocide or major war crimes
like Rwanda, the former Yugoslavia. In other words we are inventing
a fire engine and redesigning it every time there is a fire. It
would be much better if we have a permanent body with a permanent
procedure or expertise, agreed procedures and ready to go into
an action when required. We have shifted Britain's policy from
being a back marker in that to being in the front rank and we
are one of the like minded group which are the strongest supporters
of the International Criminal Court. Our objective is to secure
an effective credible International Criminal Court with the maximum
power of independence for the Court and its prosecutor and with
the widest credible application of its jurisdiction. Of course
we are involved in an international negotiation which I have to
say has not been easy. I would pay tribute to our officials in
very tough circumstances trying to find agreement which will still
allow for an effective and credible Court. One of the tests of
its effectiveness and credibility is whether it has a wide degree
of support of states that are ratifying and supporting the International
Criminal Court. It would not be credible if it was only supported
by ourselves and a couple of dozen other like minded nations.
That is why the outcome may not fully reflect our own policy or
our own design for the Court but we will continue to press vigorously
negotiations to get as close to what we would wish to as possible.
Mr Ross
577. Obviously in your manifesto you gave
a commitment to supporting the World Service and the British Council.
As a Committee we went to have lunch with the British Council
on the day the Comprehensive Spending Review was announced. We
have a Vice Chairman of the British Council on our Committee,
I am surprised she does not want to say something about that British
Council. Certainly from that sharp nose dive in the 1980s it seems
to have come up as far as the British Council is concerned and
it appears to be not only coming up but levelling out and then
increasing slightly.
(Mr Cook) In fairness to Mrs Bottomley I think
one should record that she said quite a lot yesterday in the House
on the British Council. Mr Ross is correct, the British Council
has been through a very difficult period of retrenchment. In the
last three years of the last administration it took a 14 per cent
cut in its grant from the Foreign Office which had a very severe
impact on its operations and did result in a 17 per cent reduction
in staff which has not only meant some restrictions on what it
can do but it has put additional pressure on the staff who remain.
This Spending Review provides for full protection of the budget
of the British Council and for an increase in real terms pro rata
with that of the Diplomatic Wing of the Foreign Office. I have
myself shared out of the resources I got from the Diplomatic Wing
the additional resources to enable for that modest real growth
in the British Council. We are strongly committed to it.
Chairman
578. And the World Service?
(Mr Cook) The World Service has the biggest increase
of all of the four votes under my Department, its increase is
3.4 per cent over the three year period. First of all, can I say
the three year period itself is valuable to the World Service.
The last administration in 1995 scrapped the triennial agreement
for the World Service and made it a year on year agreement which
produced uncertainty and an inability to plan the World Service.
So they gained from the fact that we have restored the three year
funding agreement. Secondly, we have provided additional resources
for them to move into new technology, modernisation of radio,
digital transmission, moving their services on to the Internet
through on-line provision of it so they will be moving with the
times in rapid technological growth of the media and that is most
important of all, Chair. We inherited what was an impossible position
for the World Service in that the previous administration had
said that they could only fund the new transmitter they need in
Oman by a Private Finance Initiative, they were unable to find
a private partner for that but there was not a penny in our public
spending plans for that very big project, it is the biggest single
capital undertaking. I am pleased to say this Spending Review
fully funds that transmitter.
Mr Ross: Before you
continue, could I just say that yesterday during the debate there
was an absolutely disgraceful attack on the new Chairman of the
British Council by the hon. Member for New Forest East. Do you
have confidence in the new chair?
Chairman
579. Do you have confidence?
(Mr Cook) Absolutely. I should say, to reinforce
the objectivity in that view, that it was not I who chose her,
she was chosen by the panel from within the British Council, a
panel which included all shades of view and I think was actually
chaired by a former Conservative Member of Parliament. She won
the selection on merit. I am very pleased with the choice. I have
total confidence in her. She is a distinguished barrister and
has played a very important role in public life and comment in
Britain. I rather suspect those comments that were made under
the cloak of privilege will not be repeated outside.
Chairman: Thank you,
Foreign Secretary. We would now like to move to Sierra Leone and
Sir Peter Emery would like to start the questions.
Sir Peter Emery: Foreign
Secretary, thank you for coming. We know you only have 75 minutes
with us and we have spent 25 per cent of that time on other matters.
Can I put two questions on Sierra Leone to you. The first is that
on 6 June Sir John Legg was asked by me whether he considered
that the work of Sir Thomas Legg and his inquiry was more important
than the work of this Committee.
Mr Ross: We have not
had Sir John Legg in front of us.
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