Examination of Witnesses (Questions 240
- 259)
TUESDAY 27 JANUARY 1997
MR PETER
COAD, MR
DAVID FRASER
AND PROFESSOR
KEN PEASE
OBE
240. If I may interrupt you, I think that it
actually went further than that, because I think about pretty
well 80 per cent thought sentences were too lenient, generally
speaking. But if it is a non sequitur then let us move
on, because we have little time, and I think that there is a massive
public perception out there that, as far as community sentences
are concerned, they are a soft option, and we read in the newspapers
about kids who have been serial offenders going off on wonderful
outings, canoeing trips, and indeed going on safari in Africa,
whilst those children, from deprived backgrounds, who have behaved
have not been so rewarded. How prevalent is this and how much
is it just newspaper hype? And, looking at the question of community
service, you did say, in answer to Robin Corbett, what you felt
needed to be done, but in terms of community service what sort
of practical things should offenders be doing which will help
to restore that self-esteem and help to rehabilitate them?
(Mr Fraser) Can I take the last bit first. If I understand
what you are saying correctly, the premise is that they are offending
because of low esteem, and I have never found that to be the case
for persistent offenders, in my experience, low esteem is not
the problem. It has been communicated by various anti-prison organisations
that it is the problem, but in my 26 years' experience of working
with offenders of this kind it is not the problem. The problem
is the opposite, they are overconfident, they are over ebullient,
the world is their oyster; it is not low esteem, it is, in fact,
the very opposite. So, without causing offence to you, I think
the premise on which your question is put is wrong.
241. What do you do with them then, in terms
of trying to inculcate some sense of remorse?
(Mr Fraser) If someone has committed an offence and
wants to change and is interested in leading a crime-free life
then there are lots and lots of things which the Probation Service
can do, it can help that person, Mr Coad has been through the
list already, but I will repeat some of them. There are lots of
things that can be done with him, he can be helped to find a job,
he can be helped to present himself much better to employers,
he can be helped with his drinking problem, if he has one, he
can be helped with a drug problem, he can be given life skills
courses, there are endless lists of things which can be and are
being done with them. And, if he is motivated to reform and is
truly repentant of his previous behaviour, they will work, we
will get success, as we used to, if I may say so, in the good
old days. But there is no point in trying it if he treats it with
contempt, which is, unfortunately, the case today with persistent
offenders under supervision.
242. And the first part of my question, the
problem of these examples of jollies?
(Mr Fraser) They are probably more prevalent in social
services, are they not, jollies, would you say?
(Mr Coad) Yes. The Probation Service is not actually
terribly notorious for their safari holidays. They do have some
very extravagant camping in the mountains, canoeing, and what
have you. It is not an everyday occurrence, I would not pursue
and criticise the Probation Service for that sort of thing, if
I may put it that way.
243. Do you have a view on things like boot
camps, in response to Willie Whitelaw's short, sharp, shock treatment,
boot camps and corporal punishment, do you feel that that has
a role to play?
(Mr Coad) We are dead against corporal punishment,
that is absolutely and totally out. Boot camps have a place. I
did not actually agree with using Colchester, because I thought
that there was something inappropriate about using an Army set-up
for a boot camp regime. But I think that boot camps serve a purpose
of punishment, it has got to be available to punish, it has got
to be an unpleasant place for people to experience; but it also
needs to be a positive experience, it needs to be educational,
it needs to supply all the needs, within reason, of the people
who get sent there. But they are necessary. I do think they have
some deterrent effect, but I could not prove that. But the fact
is that Willie Whitelaw used a most unfortunate expression, of
"short, sharp shock" when he introduced detention centres
as the answer to youth crime. Approved schools, borstals, detention
centres, boot camps, or whatever, are not the answers. They are
part of the sentencing strategy, and I think sentencers should
have them available. If somebody comes out of Willie Whitelaw's
detention centres and commits crime, it is like every other institution,
it is not the failure of the institution. The anti-prison lobby
have made wonderful mileage out of claiming that approved schools
failed, borstals failed, and Willie Whitelaw's detention centres
failed; it is not true. No institution fails, no lumps of bricks
and mortar fail, it is the people who walk out of those establishments
and decide to go on committing crime who fail.
Chairman
244. Our discussion has taken place very much
in terms of probation versus imprisonment. Can I just clarify,
first of all, what we mean by probation. One concept is an appointment
ten or 12 times a year for an hour or two, and I think we understand
that, but do probation officers supervise things like community
service; they do, do they not?
(Mr Fraser) It is a mixed bag now; they have community
service staff.
Mr Malins: They have community service supervisors,
under the direction of the Community Service organisation.
Chairman
245. When I go to my local Chief Probation Officer
and ask to look at some projects, community service projects are
amongst those to which he directs me; he appears to have some
influence over them?
(Mr Fraser) Yes; perhaps because it is more tangible,
it is something that is easy to see, easy to conceptualise.
246. How does community service work; is that
a successful model for some types of prisoners, in your view?
(Mr Fraser) We can only again refer to the evidence,
which is that, in terms of reconviction rates, no, unfortunately.
I feel quite bad about always saying no and sounding very negative,
but it is not a wish to be negative, it is just that the evidence
says what it says. And the reconviction rates of those on community
service are horrendous.
247. Okay; and the other two gentlemen are agreed
about that, are you, roughly speaking?
(Professor Pease) Yes.
248. Tagging, I think I heard Mr Coad say, did
work in some circumstances; is that right?
(Mr Coad) For community service?
249. No, I am moving on, I am taking the alternatives
that we have not really touched on and just trying to get very
quickly your opinions on them?
(Mr Coad) And you want me to talk about tagging?
Chairman: No, I just want you to say whether
you think it works or not?
Mr Corbett
250. Curfew orders, are they not?
(Professor Pease) The answer is yes, but not this
one, necessarily.
(Mr Coad) I would agree with that.
(Professor Pease) Because, historically, the Offenders'
Tag Association in America advocated what they called the "activity
tag" which told you where people were, wherever they were,
and the technology makes that now possible. However, the thing
that the Home Office, and was called "pusillanimous"
because it did, introduced was the curfew tag, where the person
is not where they are supposed to be but you do not know where
they are. Therefore, my view would be that if you thought through
the tag in its fullest deterrent implications then it would be
the activity tag that would get the bulk of your attention rather
than the curfew tag.
Chairman
251. So that is a 24-hour job, is it?
(Professor Pease) Yes, it is a 24-hour job, but then
so is the curfew tag, in terms of the wearer, you are wearing
it all the time.
(Mr Coad) No; no, it is deactivated. It is a maximum
of 12 hours, it is two to 12 hours a day maximum and it can be
applied for a maximum of six months. Therefore, I would take the
view that 12 hours is plenty enough time to go on committing crime.
It does not do anything.
252. Have you studied the evidence arising from
the experiments that have been conducted?
(Mr Coad) The three experiments, Berkshire, I think
Manchester, and Essex, is it?
(Professor Pease) No. Norfolk, Manchester and Berkshire.
Mr Corbett
253. Forgive me, was all tagging similar, in
each of those trials?
(Mr Coad) They were about the same, yes.
254. No, I mean doing it from 7 o'clock at night
until 7 o'clock in the morning, or whatever?
(Mr Coad) Yes; you can vary the tagging as to what
you want. Clearly, if you can keep someone in a house, in their
home, from 6 o'clock at night to 6 o'clock in the morning there
is a potential for keeping them away from criminal activity. If
you accept that 80,000 truants are on the street every day, and
research clearly shows that truants commit a huge amount of crime,
if tagging, and I am not quite sure if it has got there yet, can
keep them within the school building while they should be in the
school building, the potential for increasing their educational
abilities, their self-esteem that would go along with restricting
them from leaving the school premises and mixing with a peer group
that would be a destructive influence.
Chairman
255. So, in some way, you see tagging as having
some potential for early intervention that has not yet been exploited?
(Mr Coad) It would be early intervention, as the Crime
and Disorder Bill is suggesting; but, for example, there is a
suggestion that 6,000 people are going to be let out of prison
and as a part of their sentence to be tagged. Now, if those are
not very carefully selected and they are part of the cycle of
persistent offenders, all you are doing is allowing 6,000 people,
who are prolific persistent offenders, out, terrorising society,
so I do not see that that is a valid way of reducing the prison
population.
256. Compensation; is that a valid alternative,
or forcing the villain to compensate the victim, where he can?
(Mr Coad) If he has got any money; but the problem
with that, as we all know, about the prostitutes, you fine them
and they go and get more business, and if you put a financial
penalty on a burglar they will go out and do more burgling.
Mr Corbett: Maybe you should fine the customer?
Chairman
257. We will not go down that road just at the
moment. As you will be aware, there are some experiments conducted,
for example, in the Thames Valley, in what they call "restorative
justice", that is to say, where the victim is willing, and
obviously many victims, understandably, would not be willing,
but where the victim is willing, obliging the villain to confront
the victim, and therefore to have to come to grips with the consequences
of his, or her, villainy; does that work, in your view?
(Mr Fraser) No. If I may refer back to my seven years
in the young offender prison, I introduced a number of rehabilitative
programmes during my time there, one of which was a victim awareness
programme, where we got close to doing that which you have just
described, but we never brought victims in. What we did was we
made a video of a real victim being interviewed, this was very
moving, because she meant everything she said, and we showed this
film as part of our victim awareness course, with small groups
of persistent young offenders. It made little difference, if no
difference, for the majority of them. One or two of them would
turn their backs and not look at the screen, this kind of thing.
Occasionally, some of the younger boys would cry, 16 year olds,
but in terms of a rehabilitative effort that had a real impact,
making offenders aware of the consequences they have on their
victims, on the basis of a seven-year trial with hundreds and
hundreds of prisoners, it does not work.
258. You tried it for seven years?
(Mr Fraser) Yes, every week for seven years.
259. Where?
(Mr Fraser) At Eastwood Park Young Offender Institute,
on the borders of Avon and Gloucestershire, that was then Avon.
The idea that victims should even be encouraged to go and confront
their criminal concern I find difficult to accept.
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