Examination of Witnesses (Questions 280
- 299)
TUESDAY 27 JANUARY 1997
MR PETER
COAD, MR
DAVID FRASER
AND PROFESSOR
KEN PEASE
OBE
Chairman
280. But you are talking about the 1970s, I
think, are you not?
(Mr Coad) Yes, because they do not have to do that
now, because they are well established, they are kings, as it
were.
Mr Winnick
281. The conspiracy has triumphed?
(Mr Coad) Absolutely.
282. Yes, I see. And are they, would you say,
the puppets, the conspirators themselves, because they are conspirators,
you smile but you have confirmed that, that is your view, these
conspirators, who control the organisation, do they do so out
of their own initiative or because they are affiliated in some
way with some revolutionary group; no?
(Mr Coad) I do not know that. I could not possibly
give an answer to that because I simply do not know the answer.
If they were, the last person in the world to know would be me,
because they call me a troublemaker, I cannot understand why.
283. But these conspirators are not interested,
presumably, in carrying out successful probation work, am I right;
in your view, that is the position?
(Mr Coad) I think they would like their cake and eat
it, I think they would like their ideology and their ideas on
how probation should be operated to work, but they are prepared
to tolerate huge failure rates.
284. What about their daily work, because they
are not full-timers, I take it, these are the executive of the
National Association of Probation Officers?
(Mr Coad) There is a voluntary executive and then
there is a paid staff, and Harry Fletcher is the notorious mouthpiece
for NAPO, and Harry Fletcher, in my view, at times, has no idea
of the difference between falsehood and truth.
285. Leaving aside Mr Fletcher, who presumably
is one of the chief conspirators in all this business, do I take
it that the other people are involved on a daily basis, like you
were, in probation work?
(Mr Coad) Yes, most of them, although the people who
reach the top, in the executive places like NAPO, are given an
awful lot of time off to attend and to do NAPO work.
286. Would you describe them as competent, not
necessarily as conspirators, because the answer there would be
yes, but as probation officers, as competent as you were?
(Mr Coad) It depends on what you mean by competent.
287. You know what "competent" is,
Mr Coad?
(Mr Coad) No, I am not always sure, because they are
very competent anti-prison conspirators, and I do not think that
is—
288. Leaving aside their conspiracies, which
we have been told about, I mean in their daily work for which
they are paid; are they competent, or not?
(Mr Coad) You would have to put that question to all
the Probation Service, who are responsible for a huge failure
rate, and say, "Is the Probation Service competent?",
and the answer is, no, they are not competent at protecting society
and rehabilitating offenders. So I can answer that by using that
as an example, and they are not competent. And there are a lot
of very, very well-educated people in the Probation Service, with
degrees and PhDs, and whatever, but they are not all wise people.
289. But, on the other people, who are not in
the conspiracy, you yourself describe probation officers in the
paper which you submitted to us as working with dedication and
hard work?
(Mr Coad) They do, many of them.
290. What percentage would be working with dedication
and hard work?
(Mr Coad) I think most of them would be working with
dedication and hard work, doing things that were pointless, and
Mr Fraser did research into the effect of pointlessness in the
Probation Service, the pointlessness of work that does not work,
and perhaps could add to that.
291. So, the large majority, what, percentage-wise,
80, 90 per cent, work with hard work and dedication?
(Mr Coad) Yes, most of them.
292. I am asking you the question, 80 or 90
per cent?
(Mr Coad) I do not know; most of them.
293. What is most?
(Mr Coad) I do not know; how long is a piece of string.
I just do not know.
294. I think you are rather avoiding the question
there?
(Mr Coad) With respect, I am not. I think you are
asking questions that are almost impossible to answer, with respect.
295. Yes, with respect. When you say "most",
I think you know very well that it is around 80 or 90 per cent
but you do not want to agree with that particular figure, but
we will leave it at that; but, you agree, the large majority,
would that be alright?
(Mr Coad) I think that is another word for "most".
296. One final question, if I may. Apart from
your viewpoint that this is a conspiracy, could you tell us who
else has come to that viewpoint; magistrates? Because I see a
reference here that in a survey of magistrates conducted in 1994
it was found that 88 per cent of the magistrates were fairly or
very satisfied with the work of the Probation Service in their
own area?
(Mr Coad) I think I have, in fact, answered that question.
I have pointed out that every quarter magistrates are submitted
to constant brainwashing, which I opted out of in the latter end
of my career. They are submitted to annual reports claiming 80-odd
per cent success rates, they get all the anti-prison lobby, the
media, all reporting the wonderful success of the Probation Service;
what else can they think?
297. They must be very naive then?
(Mr Coad) In many respects, they are gullible, I would
use that word.
Mr Malins
298. I imagine you would agree that probation
officers and community service officers should be more proactive
in instigating breach proceedings, when breaches occur, and I
imagine you would agree also that courts should be more authoritative
in punishing breach proceedings when they are proved?
(Mr Fraser) Yes, we certainly would.
299. Good. Thank you very much, that is the
answer to that question, unless you have got anything further
to say, but that is the question on the order paper. It is obvious
to those of us who are in the know that breach proceedings are
not brought often enough.
(Mr Coad) No. We would agree with that, absolutely.
Chairman: We move on to young offenders, where
I think you possibly do take a view that there are alternatives
other than just imprisonment, in dealing with young offenders,
but we shall see. Mr Singh.
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