Examination of Witnesses00 (Questions
860 - 880)
TUESDAY 5 MAY 1998
MS JOYCE
QUIN, MP, MR
JOHN HALLIDAY,
MR MARTIN
NAREY AND
MISS CHRISTINE
STEWART
860. We are referring specifically to probation
and the various projects they have got under way. Let us leave
that. Can I turn to a slightly different matter, looking perhaps
at some of the cases we have seen. Leaving aside the drug element,
it is quite interesting to see the number of young people who
are in great difficulty either with drugs or persistent crime
who come from broken homes. One of the interesting statistics
Sir David Ramsbotham gave when he came here was that only 18 per
cent were living with both parents at the time of their arrest
and 56 per cent had experienced parental divorce or separation
before the age of 15. I know it is slightly wider but I wonder
if you have any thoughts on the remarks made by the Home Secretary's
brother who is Chairman of what used to be called the Marriage
Guidance Council who suggested that "soaps" were bad
for families. Certainly that is a view which I share entirely
and I wonder if the Minister has any comments on that.
(Ms Quin) You are tempting me rather wider than my
own area of responsibility and since I did not hear the remark
in question perhaps I will not be tempted too far down that route.
861. We are a small private gathering, it is
alright.
(Ms Quin) Nonetheless, I think that the issues you
raise are important although it seems to me they are similar to
some of the issues that were being raised by the Chairman earlier
in terms of looking at the wider social setting and how you get
the different parts of the system, statutory agencies, voluntary
groups, and so on, to try and help address these problems. Obviously
there is not an instant answer to the problem of broken homes
or of people who happen to grow up in very unsatisfactory family
circumstances. Nonetheless, I think that by getting the various
agencies at local level to work together in order to try and highlight
the problems at an early stage and bringing in all kinds of organisations
including organisations like Relate and marriage guidance organisations
and so on, I think you can start to make a difference, but it
is not going to be an instant or quick answer. Also so many other
elements are part of the equation that you mention in terms even
of wider economic issues such as taxation, such as benefits, such
as the role of agencies like the Child Support Agency. There are
so many things and I could not possibly deal with all of those
in answer to your question. But I think it does come back to seeing
the value of a partnership approach and trying to get the problems
focused on at an early stage. It is a tragedy that we do get so
many people into the prison system who have got a dreadful family
background which has given them no start in life whatsoever.
Mr Corbett
862. Minister, do you find it extra-ordinary
that a probation officer cannot touch a button and get up-to-date
information on reconviction rates?
(Ms Quin) Absolutely.
863. Is something being done about it?
(Ms Quin) Yes indeed. We are very keen to improve
the information technology system not just across the probation
system but also across the criminal justice system as a whole
so that we do end up with systems which are compatible with each
other and which are capable of talking to each other. You mention
the fact that probation services cannot get the information that
you are talking about at the touch of a button and that is a very
valid point. I am concerned about the amount of documentation
that wends its slow way between different parts of the criminal
justice system often entirely unnecessarily and causing delays
in the system as a result, and therefore the system that we are
implementing for the Probation Service is one that we believe
is capable of interacting with the police systems and with the
information systems in other parts of the criminal justice system
and so I hope that the problem that you describe will be eliminated
in the future. It certainly seems to me to be a very important
area. I attended an interesting presentation in the Home Office
about this just a couple of months ago where we were looking at
precisely the extendability of the common information system to
the whole criminal justice system while at the same time having
in place the necessary mechanisms to ensure confidentiality of
information between different parts of the system to protect people
and to be in accordance with data protection legislation.
Mr Linton
864. Minister, there are two aspects to our
inquiry, the first is do community sentences work and the second
question is if they do, why do sentencers not make more use of
them, and my question is about the second issue. It is not surprising
that sentencers do not make more use of non-custodial sentences
when the Home Office's own research shows that half of them have
not visited a probation centre in the last two years and three
quarters of them have not visited a community service placement.
(Ms Quin) Yes, I think this is an area that does need
addressing. Certainly the figures which I know have come out at
different stages in your own inquiry I find perturbing. Given
the fact that a lot of work is being done in the Probation Service
on effectiveness (there have been a lot of changes made very recently
in terms of offender behaviour programmes and the kind of work
that people can do as part of a probation or other Order) it seems
to me to be absolutely essential that sentencers are up to speed
with the variety of work which is available. I think none of us
would want people to be sent to prison if they can be more effectively
dealt with in the community and if not understanding what is available
in the community is a barrier to that, that is a barrier we need
to break down.
865. But if it is essential they should be up
to speed, which I agree with entirely, is there anything the Home
Office can do to assist? We had Lord Bingham here who himself
regularly visited such projects and he encouraged his colleagues
to do so but he would not go beyond that. Is there something the
Government can do to ensure through the training system for magistrates
for instance that they are always aware of what the alternatives
are and what they offer?
(Ms Quin) It certainly seems to me that is worth looking
at. The training programme for magistrates is of course for the
Lord Chancellor's Department rather than the responsibility of
the Home Office. Nonetheless, I believe the Home Office will look
very seriously indeed at the evaluation of the Community Sentence
Demonstration Projects and I understand the Committee visited
the Teesside project. I myself have visited the Shropshire project
and certainly I felt the work there was tremendously valuable
in getting sentencers to understand and be familiar with some
of the good aspects of probation work in that area. We will want
to look at the evaluation of these projects very seriously in
the coming months to decide what recommendations we should make
as a result. Certainly it seems to me that familiarity with that
non-custodial sentencing system is essential and I would certainly
want to look at concrete ways of achieving that.
866. One of the problems that our visit highlighted
certainly was that the success of the system depended very much
on relations between magistrates and the Probation Service in
the area which can be good or can be bad. I wanted to quote from
the Home Office Annual Report which has key performance indicators
which measure the satisfaction level of sentencers in the Probation
Service and it sets as a target 100 per cent. The results fall
short of the targets but it does not say precisely by how much.
We see in this year's key performance indicators that the target
itself has been reduced from 100 to 90 per cent. Can you give
an indication of why or how far short it falls short of satisfaction?
(Ms Quin) I think I might ask Mr Halliday to deal
with that one.
(Mr Halliday) My recollection is that the general
expressions of satisfaction are remarkably high, in the 90 per
cent area (I am sorry, I have not got it immediately to hand)
and therefore they have disguised the point you have highlighted
in your enquiries about familiarity with schemes. The general
level of satisfaction probably comes from relationships in the
court and the work done in the court and the Home Office has been
at pains for a long time to encourage chief probation officers
to make sure that their courts have up-to-date information. A
lot of them have leaflets and so on and so forth. We are also
able through membership of the Judicial Studies Board to work
with our Lord Chancellor's Department colleagues and the people
responsible for the training of judges and magistrates to bring
to their attention the need for this kind of awareness in that
kind of training. I do know that magistrates have had to undertake
enormous amounts of training in the recent past with all the legislation
and they do sometimes say there are limits to the amount which
a lay magistracy can take on.
867. It is not only a question of magistrates
having confidence in the Probation Service but also the public,
and the problem seems to be the public tends to think of probation,
wrongly in my view, as a soft option. To what extent is this a
problem of reality and to what extent is it a problem of presentation
and perception? Is the answer to make probation tougher or to
set out to try and change people's perceptions of how tough it
is, for instance, as the Home Secretary suggested earlier this
year, by changing the language by which we describe community
sentences? The very phrase "community service programme"
seems to me kind of misleading.
(Ms Quin) I do not think it is a question of either/or.
I think we probably need to do both in order improve public confidence
in the Probation Service. There still is an impression that someone
was not punished, "they only got probation", and there
is often very little understanding of the exact nature of the
work and the sentence that somebody has been given through probation
or whichever Order has been chosen for the offender. To a certain
extent you can try and rectify this by trying to get better publicity
for good practice in the Probation Service and I think that that
is something that Ministers as well as the Service have got to
try and do. I know that some probation areas perhaps put more
into public relations than others in this respect and yet I think
it can be effective, certainly at a regional and local level,
if some effort is made by probation services to highlight, for
example, new schemes which are particularly demanding or particular
services that offenders have provided to a community as a result
of doing some kind of probation work. So I think that is important.
At the same time, a change in the language is an important aspect
of it. Many people are still very uncertain as to what probation
means and we do need to get a message across about what it does
mean. I think that the Prisons and Probation Review gives a very
good opportunity through public consultation to focus publicly
on some of these issues and through that work get the public to
become more familiar with what the Probation Service does and
what it does well. So we will certainly try and take that opportunity.
Obviously Ministers' speeches and pronouncements can also help
in that respect and we will try and do that as well.
868. Do you have any comments on the language
that is used to describe community penalties?
(Ms Quin) "Community service" is a somewhat
strange term because it sounds like a voluntary activity whereas
of course it is not a voluntary activity. I have not got an instant
alternative to put to the Committee. I assume it may be something
you yourselves look at in drafting the report.
Chairman
869. Before we move on can I ask what kind of
reasons that ten per cent of sentencers who are not satisfied
with the Service give?
(Mr Halliday) I have got the figures now. In the last
performance against the 100 per cent target 94 per cent of magistrates
said they were satisfied with the work of the Service overall.
I think there is an indicator in that the proportion "very
satisfied" with the overall use of pre-sentence reports was
36 per cent, so presumably some at least had some dissatisfaction
around pre-sentence reports. I do not have anything about the
other reasons that contributed to the six per cent, as I think
it was in this particular year, that did not expression satisfaction.
If we can find anything else we will let the Committee know.[3]
Chairman: Thank you. Mr Corbett, young offenders?
Mr Corbett
870. Minister, the Chief Inspector of Prisons
told us that the Crime and Disorder Bill is going to place extra
work and extra costs on the Probation Service. Are they going
to get extra resources to get them to do what you want them to
do under that Bill?
(Ms Quin) I think the measures in the Crime and Disorder
Bill were costed at about £130 million. Obviously some of
the measures which the Probation Service will have a responsibility
for are ones that are being piloted in the first instance and
will not have an immediate national impact on the Probation Service.
But nonetheless the kind of tasks that the Probation Service is
being asked to carry out are ones which have been put into the
Comprehensive Spending Review and the findings of that review
will therefore take that into account.
871. Is that is a sort of "hopefully, yes"
answer?
(Ms Quin) I know it is unsatisfactory to have to constantly
refer to the Comprehensive Spending Review in this sense.
Mr Corbett: Let me see if I can help you, Minister.
I have to tell you that my constituents like those of all of us
I suspect have far more real fear and well-based fear of crime
than fear of invasion of this country. We have Trident as a core
of our defence programme and we find the money for it. The Government
through the Crime and Disorder Bill wants to reduce youth offending
yet we go the other way round with that and we say we will do
that to the extent we can find the money. In terms of meeting
people's needs, is the money not better spent on crime and disorder
than Trident if that kind of choice has to be made?
Chairman
872. You have an opportunity to go into the
remit of the Ministry of Defence.
(Ms Quin) Although I stressed the importance of coordination
I did not expect to have to cover personally every Department's
policy.
Mr Corbett
873. I am just talking about political will.
(Ms Quin) I certainly agree with you that fear of
crime is a tremendously important aspect of the lives of our constituents
and that is certainly true in my own constituency and that is
the experience I have had and for that reason I am very enthusiastic
about the whole approach contained within the Crime and Disorder
Bill. All I can say to you is I certainly do not want the Crime
and Disorder Bill to fail through lack of resources.
874. Can I take you on to the review of secure
facilities for young offenders. It is implied there are not enough
secure facilities for young offenders because there is a review
going on. When might we expect that to be completed and some action
taken?
(Ms Quin) I am not personally associated with the
timing of the review which is the responsibility of my colleague,
Alun Michael, but as I understand it the review is to conclude
this year. I wonder if John Halliday has any more specific information.
(Mr Halliday) Dare I say it is linked to the Comprehensive
Spending Review, but it is actually. It is a review not just of
numbers but of systems and I think the Government will want to
come out during this year with its views on how the new Orders
in the Bill should be administered across the estate, which comprises
not only prisons but secure training centres and the local authorities'
estates, so it is the management of the estate as much as its
size.
875. Can we move on to female offenders. There
has been a dramatic rise in the number of women in prisons. Astoundingly,
on the latest figures, 400 of the sentenced women are serving
less than 12 months. Do you draw any conclusion from this that
maybe if there was better availability of probation programmes
especially for women offenders that might avoid sending them to
prison for what I regard as stupid periods?
(Ms Quin) I certainly believe that both the Prison
Service and the Probation Service need to look very closely at
their work with women offenders in particular to make sure that
we have got the most appropriate systems that we possibly can.
I was looking at the figures showing the rise in terms of the
female prison population and one thing that struck me was that
just over half that rise seemed to be accounted for by drugs related
offences and it therefore also seems to me that the Drug Testing
and Treatment Order that we are bringing into the Crime and Disorder
Bill may be something which would be an obvious way of dealing
with some of these women offenders.
876. Will that testing be made mandatory on
the non-custodial Orders?
(Ms Quin) The person subject to that Order would have
to consent to the treatment. Given we are talking about people
who are probably likely to be sent to prison rather than accept
that Order there will be a very real incentive, we believe, for
people to comply with that Order and choose that as a way of tackling
their offending.
Mr Howarth
877. I wanted to follow on from that, Minister,
because again one of the groups of young offenders we met sitting
round with us telling us about their addiction, when we asked
how much it was costing to fund this addiction one girl said £80
a day. It was quite clear that she was going to leave the room
and steal in order to sell the proceeds of that theft to fund
her addiction. Given that you recognise the part played by drugs
and alcohol in crime, can you tell us more about your view on
whether there should be more treatment outside prison for people
who offend in this way because it does seem to me that just banging
them up in prison is not the answer and their drug abuse has got
to be got rid of and I believe that the National Treatment Outcome
Research Study demonstrates that drug misusers commit far fewer
offences after one or two months in treatment which seems to make
the point.
(Ms Quin) I think the point you make is an important
one and certainly it seems to me important to try and treat as
many people outside the prison system for drug addiction and also
drug-related offences. The figures are very alarming. I think
the Home Secretary quoted a figure of £2.5 billion a year
linked to property crime committed by people of precisely the
kind you have described committing offences to feed and pay for
their own addiction.Perhaps this is an area where a good deal
of cost to society and money could be saved by effective action.
Obviously the Drug Testing and Treatment Order is an important
beginning in this respect and it is very much because of those
concerns that that Order has been brought in in the Crime and
Disorder Bill. Again it is taking me rather outside my own area
of responsibility once more but obviously the work of the anti-drugs
coordinator, Keith Hellawell, and his team is important as are
the measures that need to be taken by Government backed up by
measures at local and regional level to get as effective a treatment
strategy as we possibly can. John Halliday would like to add something
on this.
(Mr Halliday) On the funding point pilots for the
Drug Treatment and Testing Order will be funded directly and the
decisions on roll out and how that is funded have yet to be taken
but obviously there is a possibility that that would stimulate
the supply side of treatment services.
Chairman
878. You say roll out?
(Mr Halliday) The Drug Treatment and Testing Order
will be piloted initially and subject to that and its eventually
being extended and also the funding of that extension, there is
a possibility (Mr Howarth was concerned about the supply of treatment
services) that the eventual roll-out of the Order could stimulate
the supply of those services.
879. A new bit of management speak there.
(Ms Quin) What I would like to add to that is we were
very pleased at the interest shown in managing the Drug Treatment
and Testing Order by a number of probation services who have put
in bids to be part of the pilot programme and although only a
small number were chosen we would like to build on the initiative
shown in the other areas to try and make sure when we come to
the national roll out that some of that early work should not
be lost in the process.
Mr Cranston
880. I think in a way you have answered some
of these questions but I think we were wanting an assurance that
the system could cope with the increasing number of prisoners.
I think in a way your answers to Mr Winnick right at the outset
of this session indicate that it could.
(Ms Quin) Yes I think it can but I think
that some of the new measures that are being put forward can also
help in our task of accommodating the people that we need to accommodate.
Tagging was mentioned a few minutes ago in connection with voluntary
tagging of some sex offenders but we do believe it has quite an
important role to play. There is the home detention curfew scheme
which the Home Secretary announced to the House of Commons in
November last year which would involve tagging prisoners in up
to their last two months of sentence. I would like to emphasise
that while it may help to reduce the prison population it does
not have that as its main purpose. Certainly the developing use
of tagging has shown it to play a very useful role in promoting
a structured release from custody. When I visited Sweden and looked
at the tagging schemes they have there which operate across the
whole country (unlike ours which are pilot schemes at the moment)
it was quite obvious that people there felt that this was a very
helpful structure which provided the community with some reassurance
that somebody was being accommodated safely in the community.
It also had the unexpected benefit of giving people who were subject
to tagging a sense of structure into their lives; because they
had to obey the terms of the curfew in terms of being at home
or the registered premises at a particular time this for some
people had the unexpected effect of having to structure the rest
of their lives and think about the organisation and structure
of their lives in an ordered way. Since I was saying before that
I see one of my priorities as very much promoting constructive
links back into the community in a way that will reduce reoffending,
we believe that tagging has quite an important role to play in
that process.
3 See Appendix 34. Back
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