Examination of Witness (Questions 80 - 99)
TUESDAY 10 MARCH 1998
SIR DAVID
RAMSBOTHAM
80. You seem to be saying, is this the case, that in all
but exceptional circumstances, and there will be exceptions, prison
is the wrong place for young offenders of that age by and large?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) For under-18s, yes. I think
it is wrong. The thing is that they are inevitably bound to rub
shoulders with people who are older, and that is the corrupting
thing that happens. They should be spared that. That is not to
say some of them are not very bad people who have committed very
bad offences, and that is not to say that you do not find some
16 year olds who are much more mature than some 25 year olds.
There will always be exceptions. In one prison we went to at Chelmsford,
and I reported on it, I was extremely concerned that the prison
staff at that time thought the appropriate way of sitting on,
keeping quiet, bunches of juveniles was to put them in adult wings
so the adults would sit on them. I said that that was utterly
wrong. That is a Dickensian way of doing it. There is nothing
more calculated to corrupt people than doing that. I want them
spared from that.
Chairman
81. Has that been sorted out?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) I will tell you next Wednesday
when I pay another visit to Chelmsford. I think they have now
set up a proper wing, but it took time.
Ms Hughes
82. Can I ask one point of clarification on this? You mentioned
you would like to see all of the different kinds of provision,
extended provision and so on, managed and run by what you called
a youth service. Can I clarify who you think that would be? The
youth service as we often refer to it is social workers, local
authority education employees who run youth clubs and so on, and
clearly they would not be the people—would they—who
you would feel could move into this area of work? What do you
mean by youth service in this area?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) What I mean is the sort of
co-ordination I mentioned I had seen happening in Boston in Massachusetts,
where there was a director of youth services who was responsible
for co-ordinating all the activities of all the people who had
particular responsibilities for that age group.
83. Community-based disposals and custodial disposals?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) Absolutely, custody and non-custody.
For example, he would control a police raid, if you like, into
a particular club in a particular area and would have made sure
arrangements had been made for what happened to the young offenders.
He co-ordinated the work which was done in day centres and laid
down the programme. He laid down the approved programme done in
the custodial centres. The custodial centres were interesting
because in addition to having the young offenders they also—as
I found going on in Belfast, for example in the young offender
institution there—deal with social services cases alongside
them in the same place. That is the sort of example. What it will
mean is some of the services who have responsibilities at present
would have to surrender some sovereignty and somebody would have
to be made responsible for them. My suggestion to the Home Secretary
was that because there was a justice element in all this it would
make sense if it was him, but it does not really matter who. They
must also have an inspectorate. That is not just me speaking as
an inspector, I do think it is important that inspectorates are
there to confirm consistency and that is critical in this.
84. Thank you. That is a very helpful clarification. I will
now turn to the next group of questions which is about drugs in
prisons. Can you tell us whether during your own period of office
you have detected, observed, any changes in the level of drug
availability and drug use in prisons?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) I think the first thing I would
like to say about drugs is that one must commend the Prison Service
for the efforts they are making to tackle it. They admit they
are not being as successful as they would like, but there are
deliberate attempts to test people for drugs now. There are a
number of treatment programmes in various prisons around the country,
they have set up two therapeutic units, one in the north and one
in the south, where people go particularly for drug treatment,
and they are also encouraging—and I was very glad to see
mention of this the other day by the Drug Tzar—drug-free
units in prisons where people are encouraged to go drug-free.
As a policy the three parts—the testing, the treatment and
the reward for drug-free—are very important. Actually I
was concerned for sometime that the drug testing was leading to
a greater use of opiates than it was of cannabis. For a long time
we were sceptical about this because the figures were not stark
enough to be able to prove either way. I think though on the evidence
I am getting I am convinced that is so.
85. There is a transition?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) There is a transition. The
transition is marked by the fact that opiates are much easier
to get in and of course the drug barons can make more money for
less amount of stuff. The other thing, of course, is that opiates
are less easy to detect by the urine test method which is used.
It is 28 days for cannabis and two or three days for the opiates.
That is a fact and it has to be tackled. There are various other
things that personally I would like to see done. The people who
cause all the misery in this are the drug barons who people know,
and I would like to see them taken out, frankly.
Mr Corbett
86. Are you saying they are in prison?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) There are drug barons in prison
and they intimidate others. They drive people into debt. They
dominate the life of the prisons really in a way which I think
is totally unacceptable. It is easy for me to say as Chief Inspector
what I would like to see done, and the staff will produce the
difficulties and so on, but I do think that while the barons are
allowed to wreak their misery in the prisons, frankly, it undermines
all the programmes that everyone is doing. I believe they should
be taken out and put somewhere separately. Allegedly they do not
use, so they can deal on each other. The Prison Service has a
by-product problem which arises from this drug scene which is
the number of vulnerable prisoners, who demand to be kept separate
for their own protection, is going up. You can go into some prisons
and say, "What is the biggest problem in this prison",
and they will say "Debt", and the debts are drug debts.
The drug debts are carried on from prison to prison. The grapevine
works and the mates of somebody will come and deal with somebody.
There is also the hideous problem of the pressure being put on
families to bring in drugs. The Prison Service are doing well
in the number of arrests they are making of families coming in,
but they are still not achieving all that they necessarily could.
Staff, I am quite certain, are under intimidation from the whole
of the drug scene.
87. To bring drugs in?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) Not necessarily to bring them
in but to not notice them being brought in, I suspect.
88. Do you think there is an issue with staff bringing them
in?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) I am sure the Director General
would be the first to admit that probably somewhere in his 44,000
people there is someone who has or is bringing stuff in. But I
do not think staff are to blame for bringing in so much as perhaps
not noticing it is being brought in.
89. So it is families mainly—
(Sir David Ramsbotham) It is families, and friends
too. "Please bring it in for somebody else". I personally
would like to see, and I have said this to the Drugs Tzar, much
more deliberate attempts to get the searching of people right.
Customs, for example, have a sort of locked arch which you walk
through which can detect substances. It can also pick up medication
but that does not matter because you can question them. I would
like to see one of those in every prison. I am told they cost
£30,000, I would like to see everyone who goes into prison
go through that, I would like to see all mail put through it,
and although it will not necessarily detect everything at least
it would act as a deterrent as well as everything else to people
bringing in, because the chance that would pick it up is far more
likely than somebody seeing it. I would like to see passive drug
dogs in every prison, not just in some prisons. I would like to
see passive drug dogs on duty every time visitors come into prison.
I also would like to see the Prison Service use those passive
drug dogs along the landings of the prison at night, which is
allegedly the time that people are smoking whatever they are smoking.
By not doing that, it seems to me you are condoning its use, and
I do not think that is right.
90. So really you seem to be saying to us that there needs
to be a much more aggressive application of current measures together
with new measures in order to have any real impact on the flow
of drugs into prisons?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) Correct.
Mr Winnick
91. When you said "take out the drug barons", at
first I was a bit concerned, but later on you did explain what
you meant.
(Sir David Ramsbotham) Forgive my language.
92. How much sympathy they would get if they were taken out
is another matter and we are always concerned with the rule of
law. How many do you think are really involved in being the arch
criminals in spreading drugs in prisons?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) I should think there are certainly
ten in each prison.
93. In each prison?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) In each prison, who are the
sources.
94. It does seem surprising to those of us who are not involved
in the prison management or structure in any way that that should
be so without any disciplinary action being taken on a constant
basis. You must be surprised yourself?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) I am very surprised. You will
find I put this in my annual report because I am surprised. I
cannot see how it can be allowed. If the prison staff claim they
do not know who they are, I actually do not think I believe them
because all the prisoners know and there are ways of finding out
who is doing the dealing. If they do not know, they jolly well
should know.
95. My colleague, Ms Hughes, said to you that you want a
rather aggressive programme which I think we would all agree with.
What is surprising is that that sort of aggressive approach is
not being applied within the Prison Service. You are nodding your
head, you obviously would like to see it done?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) I would. I also commented in
my report last year that I was responsible for starting the drug
testing in the Army and the way we did that was to descend on
a whole regiment and tested everyone from the commanding officer
downwards so nobody escaped, as it were, from the test. I am not
sure a random 10 per cent test is necessarily the right way to
go about testing in a prison. What we used in the Army was a litmus
test which told you there was something wrong or right and you
only sent away for expensive analysis those samples which indicated
there was something wrong. The Prison Service sends all samples
away for expensive examination, therefore I think there is a cheaper
and better way. I would search the whole prison, and I would not
mind doing it on a Saturday either, because you would catch the
people who had been smoking on Friday on the assumption if you
smoke over the weekend, they do not test over the weekend, so
you would be clear by Monday. I would really like to see a much
more aggressive approach to it if you really mean to try and stop
it.
96. Those views undoubtedly would be echoed by all the members
of the Committee and we will see what we say when we come to our
conclusions, Sir David. Do you think it would help in any way
if there was, if there does not exist at the moment, a charge
which could be made for dealing in drugs in prison?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) Yes, absolutely.
97. At the moment what is the legal position? Can a charge
be brought?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) I think they can only be charged
if they are found in possession. There are imaginative programmes
around. I forget which constabulary it is in Scotland, I think
it is Strathclyde, where they have these occasional programmes
called "Shop a dealer" and they have a free phone line
for a day and everyone is encouraged to go and ring through with
the name of a dealer, and it is working. I believe these dealers
are the people we really have to root out, frankly. I would like
to see some sanction being brought against them which affects
their sentence.
98. So would I. When you talk about these drug barons, ten
in each prison, being transferred to presumably a quite isolated
prison, would that be practical?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) I am saying in the prison where
they are they should be isolated from other people. I do not necessarily
mean you should have one prison full of barons, but I would take
them away from the normal location where they do not have communication
with other prisoners.
99. And keep them in isolation for the rest of their sentence
as the case maybe?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) Certainly I would keep them
isolated. This is something which needs to be looked at, as to
how you cure these barons. I do not know the answer but they must
be a similar problem in the community because it is these people
who are causing the misery there too.
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