Examination of Witness (Questions 140 - 152)
TUESDAY 10 MARCH 1998
SIR DAVID
RAMSBOTHAM
140. I had that in mind to some extent.
(Sir David Ramsbotham) I am prejudiced. If they have
serious grievances about things we must look at the machinery
for doing it. I know Richard Tilt is anxious to have some independent
pay review body and so on and that sort of thing.
141. Do I take it, Sir David, that morale in the prison service
is far from what you would like to see? Clearly from what you
have just said in reply to some of my questions you give the impression
that it is a far from happy situation perhaps in the majority
of prisons. Or would that be going too far?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) I described it in my annual
report last year as being "fragile" and I think I would
still describe it as fragile, by which I do not mean that it is
in imminent danger of breaking but it has got to be handled with
care and not taken for granted. I think the biggest single factor
that has changed since last year—I am not making a political
point at all—is that the prison service and the prison officers
felt themselves very under-valued by the previous administration
and they did not feel that what they were doing was appreciated.
I articulated this in my annual report. I think they do feel valued
now but there is this underlying issue that the POA are raising.
For as many noises as are made by the executive of the POA there
are many, many prison officers who wish they would not do it and
do not feel comfortable with what the POA are doing.
142. Do you think there should be a wider area of recruitment
for prison staff?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) Oh, yes, absolutely.
143. It is a bit limited at the moment, is it not?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) It is. On the other hand, there
are lots of people, as I have indicated, who are coming in from
this very different background, what one might call the VSO or
the UN agency background. I think the thing that worries me most
in the make up is the lack of ethnic minority representation.
144. Some of the prison staff have, if not now in the past,
been associated with what can only be described as very right-wing
extremist causes.
(Sir David Ramsbotham) And they are still there. I
can still introduce you to the sort of people you saw on the programme
Porridge. Personally I do not think the prison service
should approach the ethnic minority recruiting issue in isolation.
I think they ought to be in concert with the police and the armed
forces. Basically you are approaching people to ask them to do
the same thing, to give a commitment to a public service if you
like, and then having made that national appeal on behalf of all
three you can separate what you are doing for the prison. I think
the problem is that the prison service recruiting at the moment
is localised, in other words the prison goes and recruits what
it needs from its own area and, therefore, if there is not a very
happy ethnic minority relationship in the immediate area that
rubs off. If you had a wider approach I think you might make inroads.
There are marvellous people in there, I just wish they would come
in and do the work.
145. You make some very sensible suggestions. Are you putting
those forward quite clearly to the Home Secretary?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) Yes. You will find it in my
annual report too.
Chairman
146. We heard when we went to Doncaster was that the introduction
of more women officers had a civilising influence on the regime.
Is that your impression?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) Absolutely.
147. We heard when we went to Brixton, within my earshot
anyway, was the POA representative saying "over his dead
body".
(Sir David Ramsbotham) I think over my dead body do
they not have women in Brixton. We have said that we think the
mix should be 70/30 according to the gender of the prison and
that applies to young offenders as well. In the report which came
out the other day I was appalled to find that the women's prison
at Brockhill a year after it had been made a women's prison had
80 per cent male officers in it. That is not on. The prison service
have got to get that right.
148. I was also surprised that, as one went round the prisons,
one often saw degrading pictures of women all over the cell walls.
Since many of the people are sex offenders I wonder whether this
is entirely healthy?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) No, it is not. I think this
is wrong. One of the things we ask about is the prison policy
on those sort of displays and we raise it in the reports time
after time saying "This must be taken down". You have
to think this thing through and also children, photographs of
children you have to be very careful about. I do not think that
they are as observant of these things as they ought to be. I think
this is a prison service matter and we raise it with them.
149. Is that a policy which can vary according to the governor
or is it something which requires change from the higher level?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) I think there should be an
absolute standard. I do not think that you should allow individual
governors to say "You can have this and have that",
I really do not.
150. When I put this point to the previous prison minister
she replied that there was a standard and the standard was that
anything which could be purchased off the shelf at a newsagent
could be circulated in the prisons.
(Sir David Ramsbotham) I am sorry, I do not agree
with that.
Mr Winnick
151. Neither do I.
(Sir David Ramsbotham) Think of what you can buy at
a newsagent.
Chairman
152. Yes.
(Sir David Ramsbotham) No. Also we remind people that
women staff walking down the landing and working in the prisons,
you have to think of them too. Come on, there are standards here.
Chairman: On that note, we conclude, Sir David. Can we thank
you for a stimulating session. Most of the people here have been
up for the last 26 hours but I did not see anybody nod off during
your contribution. I think we are all impressed by your humanity,
your dynamism and the enthusiasm with which you approach your
task. Thank you very much for coming.
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