Select Committee on Home Affairs Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 180 - 199)

TUESDAY 9 JUNE 1998

JANE ENTICOTT, MARGARET PEDLER AND MR ALUN THOMAS

  180. So there is more a requirement for the electoral returning officers to pursue these cases rather than the people running the residential homes?
  (Ms Enticott) Yes, I think it should be co-operation, but, yes, I think there is a certain responsibility there that is not being met.

Mr Howarth

  181. Mr Thomas, the problems of blind and visually impaired people are really rather different. I think that what you want is to have the forms in much larger print and also some forms available in Braille. Can you tell us what the present practice is for blind and visually impaired people?
  (Mr Thomas) Yes. Perhaps, to start with, we do have some anecdotal evidence of the registration process actually causing difficulties for blind and partially sighted people. I can quote, for example, the instances of an 85 year old man from Suffolk, who has been blind since birth, who feels that it is impossible for him, as a blind person, to vote, and subsequently has not registered, ever. And I think that that is a sort of issue that is emerging, not just for people who have been blind since birth, some of them, but particularly for those people who become visually impaired in old age, and as a consequence they believe that visual impairment is a part of ageing and voting is a privilege that is no longer something that they can actually access. Many of them fear the postal and proxy forms of voting because they have never used them in the past, they just assume that it is one of those things that they cannot do any more. In terms of the specific problems that blind and partially sighted people face, I think that the crucial issue here is the one of a lack of information about the process: why do people receive a form, in what format will it be, what can they expect, where does the form have to be sent to, by when; those are the crucial issues. At the moment, blind and partially sighted people who are unable to access their post independently on the day generally receive a document through the post that looks like a piece of junk mail, it looks as if it was a take-away menu, for example, from a local Indian restaurant or a pizza parlour, and there is no forms of identifying it separately. If people were informed about the whole process of why registration was important, why it was taking place, they would know to expect that form, they would know about the need to deal with it urgently. In terms of the specific question of form legibility, we have had ample examples of very good practice where clear print has been used; we strongly advocate that clear print should be used in all instances, because it is best for everybody concerned. I think anybody involved in marketing would certainly agree with that. Good colour contrast between the printed word and the background paper, I think, is also very important, as well as some very basic rules about not superimposing print on pictures, and so on, which is rarely the case with electoral registration forms. We have, though, come across very bad examples of very poorly designed forms, and I will quote just one example, for starters, of an electoral authority in Wales which has used a particularly badly designed form, has cluttered it very badly and has alternated Welsh and English sentences as opposed to keeping the two languages apart in the actual form itself, which is a recipe for disaster for all concerned, let alone blind and partially sighted people. So, unfortunately, there are examples of bad practice. Making information available in clear print, using some specific standards, will benefit the vast majority of blind and partially sighted people, because there are only 19,000 regular Braille readers in the UK. However, it is important to note that, for those Braille readers, Braille is their most important form of communication for them, and in that sense we would consider it reasonable for alternative methods to be provided; those may well include a visit to assist with the filling out of the form, a home visit, although we would very much maintain that people should use passwords in order to gain access to the homes of blind and partially sighted people, as is the case at the moment with utility companies and older and visually impaired customers, and other disabled customers. We also think that arrangements should be made to, in certain instances, waive the need for a signature, or to assist people with signing a document, so, for example, guiding the hand of a blind or partially sighted person so that the signature can be put in the right place, or the use of templates, as is done by banks for enabling blind and partially sighted people to sign cheques. I think that these are the sorts of flexible arrangements that we would be very much in favour of, and, obviously, in certain instances, people may well prefer the form to be made available in Braille, or on tape.

  182. You mentioned that you think that polling cards ought to have some sort of tactile aspect to them; do you think that that would be helpful, and presumably that would apply to those who are registered as being blind or partially sighted?
  (Mr Thomas) Yes, we have certainly given this issue some thought. I think though that we would go back again to explaining the process to people quite clearly, because it is often the case that people who are unable to access the printed word, or the printed word in its current small print form, find difficulty because they do not know that a polling card will arrive with them and they do not know the arrangements that are needed in order to access the vote. So I think that if people know about the process then that is the primary concern; however, if some form of tactile `phone number can be provided, where people can contact people for additional information, that would be the ideal solution. Because I think it is impractical to suggest that a tactile form of identification of each of the polling stations should be provided on cards for all potential registerable blind and partially sighted people, I think it would probably be pretty impractical. And can I say that one other issue, which I think is a very pertinent issue for blind and partially sighted people, is that we are currently embarking on major changes to the voting system in the UK, we are going to find next year that there are going to be forms of PR used in the European elections, and we are also going to find that within the Scottish Parliament elections and the Welsh Assembly elections a very different form of PR is going to be used from the one for the European elections. It is going to be very challenging to explain the different voting systems to blind and partially sighted people and to other disabled people as well, and I think that the onus is very much on the Home Office and Scottish Office, Welsh Office, to explain these processes to the potential voters, because they could be a recipe for disaster.
  (Ms Pedler) Could I just say something very briefly on the forms, because at the moment, the registration form, although there is a recommended format from the Home Office, it is not a requirement to use a standard national form. We had a particular problem, for example, this year, in St. Helen's, where in their form they actually said on it, "All voluntary patients in mental hospitals should be excluded from this form" which was both wrong in law and did not give any indication of the alternative, and if there was a national form that was agreed with the relevant groups then those sorts of problems would not arise.

  Chairman: Right. Mr Singh: absent voting.

Mr Singh

  183. I understand that many people with disabilities object to the absent voting system and want to vote alongside their neighbours, or family, as everybody else votes. Would the situation be helped if everybody could apply for an absent vote on demand and the restrictions were lifted, would that help that situation?
  (Ms Enticott) I want to stress here, I think there is some misunderstanding about the rejection of absent voting, particularly the postal vote. The issue here is one of choice, really. What we found, again and again, in 1992 and 1997, was that where access was a problem, or perhaps the presiding officer was not particularly interested in the issue of access to his polling station, we would be told "people like that" should have the postal vote, "You should have a postal vote; stay at home and vote"; whereas, as I have said before, the majority of disabled people certainly rejected that as an alternative and wanted to vote in person. The other big problem with postal voting, if you are forced to have a postal vote you have to vote in advance of all the campaigning being completed and the arguments being carried out. I think one of the most worrying things we came across in 1997 was the number of people suddenly saying that they felt forced to have a postal vote because they had just about given up on trying to vote in person, and we did not hear any of that in 1992 and it was quite a consistent theme in 1997, which I think is very concerning. Under the Disability Discrimination Act, electoral services could count as a service provided by the local authority, and the danger is that under that law absent votes could be seen as a reasonable alternative to actually voting on the day, and very many disabled people would reject that as a reasonable alternative. So if the restrictions were removed generally this would make people feel less separate, less discriminated against, less different, but unless the issues of choice and accessibility to public buildings is addressed it is not going to really make a difference, I feel.

  184. So it is not something that you would advocate?
  (Ms Enticott) I do not think we would object to it but we would have to monitor it very carefully to make sure—I do not think it would take away the issue of choice and the big problems caused by lack of access.

  185. What improvements to the existing system would you advocate?
  (Ms Enticott) There is a variety, really; greater publicity about the availability of absent votes and the deadlines, I think people do get confused about the deadlines and find they can lose their vote that way. Simplified forms, as we said before. Certain disabled people have impairments that are unpredictable and that can affect their ability to get out and about, so you may not have taken a postal vote, but then one day, on polling day, you are actually not well enough to go out, so disabled people, we feel, should be able to apply for an absent vote as late as possible. Late applications forms are actually already available for people who become ill.

  186. On the day?
  (Ms Enticott) I do not believe on the day, I think you can physically return your absent vote to the polling station or I believe to the council offices on the day, you have to give it to the returning officer by a certain time on election day, so if you could get someone to take it you could get round it that way, but it does not necessarily address it. I think, in the US, electronic systems and various other systems are used and people can actually have an absent vote or go to the supermarket and vote on the day, and register and vote actually on election day. I think Alun might have something to say particularly about the forms.
  (Mr Thomas) Yes, I just wanted to, in the first instance, very much back up what Jane has said, that flexibility and choice is the key in all of this, and the most important thing is that people can exercise a meaningful choice. But I am absolutely sure that a proportion of blind and partially sighted people will opt for the arrangements for absent voting, because that is what they traditionally have done, some of them, but an increasing number are wishing to vote independently on the day, or vote with assistance either from friends or from clerks. We did come across one case, which I would like to highlight, of a blind woman who voted for the first time in person, after having been an absent voter for many years, and, having completed her vote without any fuss with polling clerks, was told, in passing, by a rather snooty electoral officer that it would have been better for all concerned had she used the absent voting system, and that was a very disconcerting experience. We have already highlighted the types of improvements that we wanted for the legibility and work around the registration form itself, and I think those issues would apply equally to absent voting. I think one of the issues that we would highlight is the need to inform blind and partially sighted people by using media that they access; for example, the myriad of local talking newspapers that exist in virtually all localities, and the use of local radio to a larger extent, to explain the process. We would also welcome the fact that between the 1992 and 1997 elections there was a change in relation to postal voting, that the deadline for submitting an application for postal votes has been reduced from 13 to 11 days, and I think that has improved things in relation to the spontaneity of voting for blind and partially sighted people and other disabled people.
  (Ms Pedler) Perhaps I could say, on behalf of people with mental health problems, we would agree with SCOPE and RNIB that the key is to maximise choice and that having absent voting is not an alternative to making polling stations accessible, but I think we would generally favour the removal of restrictions on absent voting so that anybody could have an absent vote, if that was what they chose to do. Until recently you could only get a postal vote for physical incapacity, and I think the position of people with mental health problems has improved since we have had the possibility of postal votes for specific elections, and if, say, you are agoraphobic you can now apply under that system for a specific election. But there might be people who, well, (a) that is at the discretion of the electoral registration officer, and so there may be variations in practice as to whether being depressed or being agoraphobic would be reasonable grounds for not going to the polling station, and also it might not be that it is impossible for you to get to the polling station but you may have a preference, if you are depressed or if you are agoraphobic, for not going to the polling station and you should be able to exercise that preference, and that would be likely to increase turnout, I think.

  187. I understand that the absent voting application form has to be signed by a doctor and that there is evidence that doctors have been charging fees for signing that form; is that correct, and, if so, what kind of fees have they been charging?
  (Ms Enticott) The form has to be signed—there are certain people, if you are on certain disability benefits, who have a repeat absent vote; for people who become ill then you would have the form signed, or if people felt that their disability was such that they could not get to the polling station and they did not fall into one of those categories. In 1992 we received quite a lot of anecdotal evidence that charging was happening and people were very upset about it; in 1997, I have to say, we have had no reported incidents. It is not something we have particularly looked at, though I have to stress as well that we did not have any evidence that it was happening this time.

  188. Did you highlight something last time though, or was it in the press?
  (Ms Enticott) We did mention it in 1992 because we had had written evidence, people had written to us and called us to say, "this is happening, and it is actually a tax on us voting." So if it is happening we deplore it, but we do not have evidence that it has been happening recently.

  189. Coming back to absent voting and lifting of restrictions, which you advocated, I understand that there is evidence of fraud, in terms of absent voting, especially in residential accommodation. If we did lift restrictions further, would it be open to more fraud than there is at the moment?
  (Ms Enticott) Again, I think there was anecdotal evidence in 1992. I personally came across an incident where, an electoral office, a member of staff was particularly distressed, he was on the `phone to a superior with a pile of absent votes in front him, all voting for the same person, all signed off by the same doctor, and so I personally witnessed this happening, and he was told there was nothing he could do. Whether it is more widespread than that, we have not heard of particular incidents. I would come back to what I said before, I think the bigger problem is misunderstanding within residential accommodation, people either being lackadaisical about returning the forms or feeling that people are not actually eligible to vote that live within residential accommodation. We certainly have evidence in 1997 that there are mistakes like that being made, which are effectively losing people their right to vote.
  (Ms Pedler) I would agree with that, really. I do not think we have any evidence of fraud taking place; it is not something that we have studied particularly but I am not aware of any. We are aware, as Jane has said, of instances where hospitals, for example, have collected in RPF 35s and failed to forward them to the electoral registration officer.

  190. So incompetence, maybe, rather than fraud?
  (Ms Pedler) Yes.

Mr Linton

  191. I just wanted a quick supplementary on this question of absent voting. I understand, under the current system, obviously a lot of people with disabilities want to vote, in the same way that other people vote, and that is understandable. I want you to try to imagine a situation where, if there were major changes made to absent voting and early voting, for instance, in some countries you can vote in any post office, anywhere in the country, any time in the fortnight up to polling day, and you get a situation in some countries where something like 20, 25 per cent of the electorate have voted before polling day. And that means that the political parties, of course, have to peak their campaigns a good deal earlier, they have to gear themselves to the fact that people are voting earlier, so that the early or absent voter is no longer in a class of their own but they are like a large section of the rest of the electorate. In those circumstances, where absent and early voting is made much, much easier and you get a large percentage of the population using that facility, either voting in person earlier or voting by post, do you think that there would be more people suffering from disabilities who would be happy to use those facilities?
  (Ms Enticott) I do not think the issue would be particularly different. I think the issue that we are addressing here is one of people being excluded on the day; so if you were to spread the period that people could actually cast their vote, as long as there was not then separate provision as long as those post offices were fully accessible and prepared for disabled people to vote there, as long as it was then the general public, disabled people as part of the general public were participating in that way, there would not be any real objections. The issues about choice and access would remain but it is the issue of separateness and being made to feel different that is particularly problematic.
  (Mr Thomas) I think we are actually very encouraged by the sort of thinking that is emerging both from the Home Office and from the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions, at the moment, in terms of better voting, and some of the solutions that are being suggested could apply very well to disabled people. However, again, I would stress the need to explain the process fully to individuals concerned. Amongst the sorts of creative ideas, I think, which would be really beneficial would be accessible mobile stations visiting the homes of disabled people, and issues such as longer voting periods may well be beneficial for those people who have only one trusted friend who they would go to vote with as a potential assistant. So I think that I am very encouraged that there is some lateral thinking going on at the moment in terms of voting opportunities.

  192. These are ideas like voting at any polling station, or voting at supermarkets, things like that?
  (Mr Thomas) Yes, absolutely.

Mr Russell

  193. I wonder if I could just continue the bit about the vulnerable to fraud aspect. Would you accept that there is a perception that there could be fraud in residential homes?
  (Ms Enticott) Yes; we certainly found that in some of the interviews we did in 1992, and to a lesser degree in 1997, there was suspicion about the use of the absent vote generally, actually; people were saying, quite straightforwardly, "Well, I don't trust that system, I don't know if my vote will ever get there and if it will be counted; it's not the same as going actually and putting my vote in the ballot box."

  194. So, therefore, the fact that somebody does not have a vote, you are trying to overcome that, and quite rightly. Would you not agree with me that what would be even worse would be, having got the vote, somebody then, in effect, steals it?
  (Ms Enticott) Absolutely; yes. I can only speak in terms of the evidence that we have had and my personal experience, I think, in this case, and I think mistakes and fraud, incorrectness, they are all words really, if it means that somebody has lost their vote.

  195. Would you therefore welcome a system whereby, through you, Chairman, there would be spot checks by visiting magistrates as to all the postal votes in a certain residential home, to see whether, in fact, all the residents, by some coincidence, have all voted for the same candidate and have all had their ballot papers witnessed by the same person?
  (Ms Enticott) Absolutely. I think, if we know that it has happened once, that is once too many.

  196. Lastly, Chairman, are you aware of any instance of where, after the absent voters' ballot papers have gone out, I can only describe it as an unhealthy interest by people in a political party, or parties, are you aware of such instances and would you wish to see such practices banned? I am talking about people from political parties, Chairman, calling on individual postal voters, either in residential homes or where they live, to assist and collect ballot papers?
  (Ms Enticott) I have not been told of any instances like that, no.

  197. Would you be surprised if I told you that that practice has been known to happen?
  (Ms Enticott) No; judging by the range of experiences expressed and the evidence that we have, possibly not.

  198. I am aware of such an instance, Chairman, not last year but in 1996, and there was nothing that could be done about it.
  (Mr Thomas) Can I just say, from the point of view of blind and partially sighted people, what we have found is that a very large proportion of older people in residential homes have visual impairment, so this is an issue, although we do not have any specific evidence of malpractice relating to blind and partially sighted people, which is of immense concern to us, because, obviously, there is the whole question of trust in all of this.

  Mr Russell: Particularly in a marginal seat, Chairman.

Mr Corbett

  199. Can I just correct something which Mr Russell said but I do not think he meant; witnesses do not actually witness people voting, they attest to the fact that the voter is who she, or he, says she, or he, is, they do not actually see the ballot paper. I just wanted to get this straight. But the question I wanted to put, particularly to Mr Thomas, was, he was arguing, and indeed all our witnesses were, and quite properly, that people with various disabilities wanted to be able to make a choice as to whether they went to the polling station or used some form of absent vote, but, Mr Thomas, I think it was you then went on to suggest mobile polling stations, on occasions. Now does not that conflict with what you were earlier arguing about they want to be treated the same and not treated differently?
  (Mr Thomas) I think that some people who currently might, or might not, use postal or proxy votes would be the sort of people that would use mobile stations, potentially. Other people who currently use assistance, particularly from friends and neighbours, and so on, to access polling stations, may well be much more comfortable in having a mobile unit on the doorstep. The range of difficulties that we have found, particularly from people who have onset of visual impairment at a later stage in their lives, is the sheer fear of going out and about, and the difficulty that people face in doing that independently because of how dangerous crossings are, the variety of them, but also problems such as cars parking on pavements, cycling on pavements, which is turning out to be a real, major issue for blind and partially sighted people, and a whole range of issues relating to overhanging branches and dangerous paving stones. So, in that sense, many people would feel much more comfortable that currently either do not vote or use postal and proxy voting, or use access to the polling station with assistance, many would feel much more comfortable by having some sort of a mobile unit which would bring voting closer to them.
  (Ms Enticott) To add to that, I think the issue, again, does come back to choice, that the mobile station does not necessarily have to be the only option, so that people would be able to use the mobile station if they so wished. Certainly the people we interviewed, the older people, and in response to the 1997 survey, we had responses from older people in particular, saying, "I use the absent vote, I value it", it has to be part of the solution and used in conjunction with improving physical access more generally, I think, so mobile stations would have to be, themselves, fully accessible, particularly if you are talking about older people.
  (Ms Pedler) I think, also on mobile stations, if I could just add, very briefly, if the law were to be changed to allow people to register at the hospital address, then, again, you may have several people voting from that address, a number of people, and certainly if they were detained patients they may not be able to get out to the polling station, and a mobile station would give them a chance to choose between the absent voting system and voting in person.

  Chairman: Mr Howarth, on the conduct of the poll.


 
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