Examination of Witnesses (Questions 180
- 199)
TUESDAY 9 JUNE 1998
JANE ENTICOTT,
MARGARET PEDLER
AND MR
ALUN THOMAS
180. So there is more a requirement for the
electoral returning officers to pursue these cases rather than
the people running the residential homes?
(Ms Enticott) Yes, I think it should be co-operation,
but, yes, I think there is a certain responsibility there that
is not being met.
Mr Howarth
181. Mr Thomas, the problems of blind and visually
impaired people are really rather different. I think that what
you want is to have the forms in much larger print and also some
forms available in Braille. Can you tell us what the present practice
is for blind and visually impaired people?
(Mr Thomas) Yes. Perhaps, to start with, we do have
some anecdotal evidence of the registration process actually causing
difficulties for blind and partially sighted people. I can quote,
for example, the instances of an 85 year old man from Suffolk,
who has been blind since birth, who feels that it is impossible
for him, as a blind person, to vote, and subsequently has not
registered, ever. And I think that that is a sort of issue that
is emerging, not just for people who have been blind since birth,
some of them, but particularly for those people who become visually
impaired in old age, and as a consequence they believe that visual
impairment is a part of ageing and voting is a privilege that
is no longer something that they can actually access. Many of
them fear the postal and proxy forms of voting because they have
never used them in the past, they just assume that it is one of
those things that they cannot do any more. In terms of the specific
problems that blind and partially sighted people face, I think
that the crucial issue here is the one of a lack of information
about the process: why do people receive a form, in what format
will it be, what can they expect, where does the form have to
be sent to, by when; those are the crucial issues. At the moment,
blind and partially sighted people who are unable to access their
post independently on the day generally receive a document through
the post that looks like a piece of junk mail, it looks as if
it was a take-away menu, for example, from a local Indian restaurant
or a pizza parlour, and there is no forms of identifying it separately.
If people were informed about the whole process of why registration
was important, why it was taking place, they would know to expect
that form, they would know about the need to deal with it urgently.
In terms of the specific question of form legibility, we have
had ample examples of very good practice where clear print has
been used; we strongly advocate that clear print should be used
in all instances, because it is best for everybody concerned.
I think anybody involved in marketing would certainly agree with
that. Good colour contrast between the printed word and the background
paper, I think, is also very important, as well as some very basic
rules about not superimposing print on pictures, and so on, which
is rarely the case with electoral registration forms. We have,
though, come across very bad examples of very poorly designed
forms, and I will quote just one example, for starters, of an
electoral authority in Wales which has used a particularly badly
designed form, has cluttered it very badly and has alternated
Welsh and English sentences as opposed to keeping the two languages
apart in the actual form itself, which is a recipe for disaster
for all concerned, let alone blind and partially sighted people.
So, unfortunately, there are examples of bad practice. Making
information available in clear print, using some specific standards,
will benefit the vast majority of blind and partially sighted
people, because there are only 19,000 regular Braille readers
in the UK. However, it is important to note that, for those Braille
readers, Braille is their most important form of communication
for them, and in that sense we would consider it reasonable for
alternative methods to be provided; those may well include a visit
to assist with the filling out of the form, a home visit, although
we would very much maintain that people should use passwords in
order to gain access to the homes of blind and partially sighted
people, as is the case at the moment with utility companies and
older and visually impaired customers, and other disabled customers.
We also think that arrangements should be made to, in certain
instances, waive the need for a signature, or to assist people
with signing a document, so, for example, guiding the hand of
a blind or partially sighted person so that the signature can
be put in the right place, or the use of templates, as is done
by banks for enabling blind and partially sighted people to sign
cheques. I think that these are the sorts of flexible arrangements
that we would be very much in favour of, and, obviously, in certain
instances, people may well prefer the form to be made available
in Braille, or on tape.
182. You mentioned that you think that polling
cards ought to have some sort of tactile aspect to them; do you
think that that would be helpful, and presumably that would apply
to those who are registered as being blind or partially sighted?
(Mr Thomas) Yes, we have certainly given this issue
some thought. I think though that we would go back again to explaining
the process to people quite clearly, because it is often the case
that people who are unable to access the printed word, or the
printed word in its current small print form, find difficulty
because they do not know that a polling card will arrive with
them and they do not know the arrangements that are needed in
order to access the vote. So I think that if people know about
the process then that is the primary concern; however, if some
form of tactile `phone number can be provided, where people can
contact people for additional information, that would be the ideal
solution. Because I think it is impractical to suggest that a
tactile form of identification of each of the polling stations
should be provided on cards for all potential registerable blind
and partially sighted people, I think it would probably be pretty
impractical. And can I say that one other issue, which I think
is a very pertinent issue for blind and partially sighted people,
is that we are currently embarking on major changes to the voting
system in the UK, we are going to find next year that there are
going to be forms of PR used in the European elections, and we
are also going to find that within the Scottish Parliament elections
and the Welsh Assembly elections a very different form of PR is
going to be used from the one for the European elections. It is
going to be very challenging to explain the different voting systems
to blind and partially sighted people and to other disabled people
as well, and I think that the onus is very much on the Home Office
and Scottish Office, Welsh Office, to explain these processes
to the potential voters, because they could be a recipe for disaster.
(Ms Pedler) Could I just say something very briefly
on the forms, because at the moment, the registration form, although
there is a recommended format from the Home Office, it is not
a requirement to use a standard national form. We had a particular
problem, for example, this year, in St. Helen's, where in their
form they actually said on it, "All voluntary patients in
mental hospitals should be excluded from this form" which
was both wrong in law and did not give any indication of the alternative,
and if there was a national form that was agreed with the relevant
groups then those sorts of problems would not arise.
Chairman: Right. Mr Singh: absent voting.
Mr Singh
183. I understand that many people with disabilities
object to the absent voting system and want to vote alongside
their neighbours, or family, as everybody else votes. Would the
situation be helped if everybody could apply for an absent vote
on demand and the restrictions were lifted, would that help that
situation?
(Ms Enticott) I want to stress here, I think there
is some misunderstanding about the rejection of absent voting,
particularly the postal vote. The issue here is one of choice,
really. What we found, again and again, in 1992 and 1997, was
that where access was a problem, or perhaps the presiding officer
was not particularly interested in the issue of access to his
polling station, we would be told "people like that"
should have the postal vote, "You should have a postal vote;
stay at home and vote"; whereas, as I have said before, the
majority of disabled people certainly rejected that as an alternative
and wanted to vote in person. The other big problem with postal
voting, if you are forced to have a postal vote you have to vote
in advance of all the campaigning being completed and the arguments
being carried out. I think one of the most worrying things we
came across in 1997 was the number of people suddenly saying that
they felt forced to have a postal vote because they had just about
given up on trying to vote in person, and we did not hear any
of that in 1992 and it was quite a consistent theme in 1997, which
I think is very concerning. Under the Disability Discrimination
Act, electoral services could count as a service provided by the
local authority, and the danger is that under that law absent
votes could be seen as a reasonable alternative to actually voting
on the day, and very many disabled people would reject that as
a reasonable alternative. So if the restrictions were removed
generally this would make people feel less separate, less discriminated
against, less different, but unless the issues of choice and accessibility
to public buildings is addressed it is not going to really make
a difference, I feel.
184. So it is not something that you would advocate?
(Ms Enticott) I do not think we would object to it
but we would have to monitor it very carefully to make sureI
do not think it would take away the issue of choice and the big
problems caused by lack of access.
185. What improvements to the existing system
would you advocate?
(Ms Enticott) There is a variety, really; greater
publicity about the availability of absent votes and the deadlines,
I think people do get confused about the deadlines and find they
can lose their vote that way. Simplified forms, as we said before.
Certain disabled people have impairments that are unpredictable
and that can affect their ability to get out and about, so you
may not have taken a postal vote, but then one day, on polling
day, you are actually not well enough to go out, so disabled people,
we feel, should be able to apply for an absent vote as late as
possible. Late applications forms are actually already available
for people who become ill.
186. On the day?
(Ms Enticott) I do not believe on the day, I think
you can physically return your absent vote to the polling station
or I believe to the council offices on the day, you have to give
it to the returning officer by a certain time on election day,
so if you could get someone to take it you could get round it
that way, but it does not necessarily address it. I think, in
the US, electronic systems and various other systems are used
and people can actually have an absent vote or go to the supermarket
and vote on the day, and register and vote actually on election
day. I think Alun might have something to say particularly about
the forms.
(Mr Thomas) Yes, I just wanted to, in the first instance,
very much back up what Jane has said, that flexibility and choice
is the key in all of this, and the most important thing is that
people can exercise a meaningful choice. But I am absolutely sure
that a proportion of blind and partially sighted people will opt
for the arrangements for absent voting, because that is what they
traditionally have done, some of them, but an increasing number
are wishing to vote independently on the day, or vote with assistance
either from friends or from clerks. We did come across one case,
which I would like to highlight, of a blind woman who voted for
the first time in person, after having been an absent voter for
many years, and, having completed her vote without any fuss with
polling clerks, was told, in passing, by a rather snooty electoral
officer that it would have been better for all concerned had she
used the absent voting system, and that was a very disconcerting
experience. We have already highlighted the types of improvements
that we wanted for the legibility and work around the registration
form itself, and I think those issues would apply equally to absent
voting. I think one of the issues that we would highlight is the
need to inform blind and partially sighted people by using media
that they access; for example, the myriad of local talking newspapers
that exist in virtually all localities, and the use of local radio
to a larger extent, to explain the process. We would also welcome
the fact that between the 1992 and 1997 elections there was a
change in relation to postal voting, that the deadline for submitting
an application for postal votes has been reduced from 13 to 11
days, and I think that has improved things in relation to the
spontaneity of voting for blind and partially sighted people and
other disabled people.
(Ms Pedler) Perhaps I could say, on behalf of people
with mental health problems, we would agree with SCOPE and RNIB
that the key is to maximise choice and that having absent voting
is not an alternative to making polling stations accessible, but
I think we would generally favour the removal of restrictions
on absent voting so that anybody could have an absent vote, if
that was what they chose to do. Until recently you could only
get a postal vote for physical incapacity, and I think the position
of people with mental health problems has improved since we have
had the possibility of postal votes for specific elections, and
if, say, you are agoraphobic you can now apply under that system
for a specific election. But there might be people who, well,
(a) that is at the discretion of the electoral registration officer,
and so there may be variations in practice as to whether being
depressed or being agoraphobic would be reasonable grounds for
not going to the polling station, and also it might not be that
it is impossible for you to get to the polling station but you
may have a preference, if you are depressed or if you are agoraphobic,
for not going to the polling station and you should be able to
exercise that preference, and that would be likely to increase
turnout, I think.
187. I understand that the absent voting application
form has to be signed by a doctor and that there is evidence that
doctors have been charging fees for signing that form; is that
correct, and, if so, what kind of fees have they been charging?
(Ms Enticott) The form has to be signedthere
are certain people, if you are on certain disability benefits,
who have a repeat absent vote; for people who become ill then
you would have the form signed, or if people felt that their disability
was such that they could not get to the polling station and they
did not fall into one of those categories. In 1992 we received
quite a lot of anecdotal evidence that charging was happening
and people were very upset about it; in 1997, I have to say, we
have had no reported incidents. It is not something we have particularly
looked at, though I have to stress as well that we did not have
any evidence that it was happening this time.
188. Did you highlight something last time though,
or was it in the press?
(Ms Enticott) We did mention it in 1992 because we
had had written evidence, people had written to us and called
us to say, "this is happening, and it is actually a tax on
us voting." So if it is happening we deplore it, but we do
not have evidence that it has been happening recently.
189. Coming back to absent voting and lifting
of restrictions, which you advocated, I understand that there
is evidence of fraud, in terms of absent voting, especially in
residential accommodation. If we did lift restrictions further,
would it be open to more fraud than there is at the moment?
(Ms Enticott) Again, I think there was anecdotal evidence
in 1992. I personally came across an incident where, an electoral
office, a member of staff was particularly distressed, he was
on the `phone to a superior with a pile of absent votes in front
him, all voting for the same person, all signed off by the same
doctor, and so I personally witnessed this happening, and he was
told there was nothing he could do. Whether it is more widespread
than that, we have not heard of particular incidents. I would
come back to what I said before, I think the bigger problem is
misunderstanding within residential accommodation, people either
being lackadaisical about returning the forms or feeling that
people are not actually eligible to vote that live within residential
accommodation. We certainly have evidence in 1997 that there are
mistakes like that being made, which are effectively losing people
their right to vote.
(Ms Pedler) I would agree with that, really. I do
not think we have any evidence of fraud taking place; it is not
something that we have studied particularly but I am not aware
of any. We are aware, as Jane has said, of instances where hospitals,
for example, have collected in RPF 35s and failed to forward them
to the electoral registration officer.
190. So incompetence, maybe, rather than fraud?
(Ms Pedler) Yes.
Mr Linton
191. I just wanted a quick supplementary on
this question of absent voting. I understand, under the current
system, obviously a lot of people with disabilities want to vote,
in the same way that other people vote, and that is understandable.
I want you to try to imagine a situation where, if there were
major changes made to absent voting and early voting, for instance,
in some countries you can vote in any post office, anywhere in
the country, any time in the fortnight up to polling day, and
you get a situation in some countries where something like 20,
25 per cent of the electorate have voted before polling day. And
that means that the political parties, of course, have to peak
their campaigns a good deal earlier, they have to gear themselves
to the fact that people are voting earlier, so that the early
or absent voter is no longer in a class of their own but they
are like a large section of the rest of the electorate. In those
circumstances, where absent and early voting is made much, much
easier and you get a large percentage of the population using
that facility, either voting in person earlier or voting by post,
do you think that there would be more people suffering from disabilities
who would be happy to use those facilities?
(Ms Enticott) I do not think the issue would be particularly
different. I think the issue that we are addressing here is one
of people being excluded on the day; so if you were to spread
the period that people could actually cast their vote, as long
as there was not then separate provision as long as those post
offices were fully accessible and prepared for disabled people
to vote there, as long as it was then the general public, disabled
people as part of the general public were participating in that
way, there would not be any real objections. The issues about
choice and access would remain but it is the issue of separateness
and being made to feel different that is particularly problematic.
(Mr Thomas) I think we are actually very encouraged
by the sort of thinking that is emerging both from the Home Office
and from the Department of the Environment, Transport and the
Regions, at the moment, in terms of better voting, and some of
the solutions that are being suggested could apply very well to
disabled people. However, again, I would stress the need to explain
the process fully to individuals concerned. Amongst the sorts
of creative ideas, I think, which would be really beneficial would
be accessible mobile stations visiting the homes of disabled people,
and issues such as longer voting periods may well be beneficial
for those people who have only one trusted friend who they would
go to vote with as a potential assistant. So I think that I am
very encouraged that there is some lateral thinking going on at
the moment in terms of voting opportunities.
192. These are ideas like voting at any polling
station, or voting at supermarkets, things like that?
(Mr Thomas) Yes, absolutely.
Mr Russell
193. I wonder if I could just continue the bit
about the vulnerable to fraud aspect. Would you accept that there
is a perception that there could be fraud in residential homes?
(Ms Enticott) Yes; we certainly found that in some
of the interviews we did in 1992, and to a lesser degree in 1997,
there was suspicion about the use of the absent vote generally,
actually; people were saying, quite straightforwardly, "Well,
I don't trust that system, I don't know if my vote will ever get
there and if it will be counted; it's not the same as going actually
and putting my vote in the ballot box."
194. So, therefore, the fact that somebody does
not have a vote, you are trying to overcome that, and quite rightly.
Would you not agree with me that what would be even worse would
be, having got the vote, somebody then, in effect, steals it?
(Ms Enticott) Absolutely; yes. I can only speak in
terms of the evidence that we have had and my personal experience,
I think, in this case, and I think mistakes and fraud, incorrectness,
they are all words really, if it means that somebody has lost
their vote.
195. Would you therefore welcome a system whereby,
through you, Chairman, there would be spot checks by visiting
magistrates as to all the postal votes in a certain residential
home, to see whether, in fact, all the residents, by some coincidence,
have all voted for the same candidate and have all had their ballot
papers witnessed by the same person?
(Ms Enticott) Absolutely. I think, if we know that
it has happened once, that is once too many.
196. Lastly, Chairman, are you aware of any
instance of where, after the absent voters' ballot papers have
gone out, I can only describe it as an unhealthy interest by people
in a political party, or parties, are you aware of such instances
and would you wish to see such practices banned? I am talking
about people from political parties, Chairman, calling on individual
postal voters, either in residential homes or where they live,
to assist and collect ballot papers?
(Ms Enticott) I have not been told of any instances
like that, no.
197. Would you be surprised if I told you that
that practice has been known to happen?
(Ms Enticott) No; judging by the range of experiences
expressed and the evidence that we have, possibly not.
198. I am aware of such an instance, Chairman,
not last year but in 1996, and there was nothing that could be
done about it.
(Mr Thomas) Can I just say, from the point of view
of blind and partially sighted people, what we have found is that
a very large proportion of older people in residential homes have
visual impairment, so this is an issue, although we do not have
any specific evidence of malpractice relating to blind and partially
sighted people, which is of immense concern to us, because, obviously,
there is the whole question of trust in all of this.
Mr Russell: Particularly in a marginal seat,
Chairman.
Mr Corbett
199. Can I just correct something which Mr Russell
said but I do not think he meant; witnesses do not actually witness
people voting, they attest to the fact that the voter is who she,
or he, says she, or he, is, they do not actually see the ballot
paper. I just wanted to get this straight. But the question I
wanted to put, particularly to Mr Thomas, was, he was arguing,
and indeed all our witnesses were, and quite properly, that people
with various disabilities wanted to be able to make a choice as
to whether they went to the polling station or used some form
of absent vote, but, Mr Thomas, I think it was you then went on
to suggest mobile polling stations, on occasions. Now does not
that conflict with what you were earlier arguing about they want
to be treated the same and not treated differently?
(Mr Thomas) I think that some people who currently
might, or might not, use postal or proxy votes would be the sort
of people that would use mobile stations, potentially. Other people
who currently use assistance, particularly from friends and neighbours,
and so on, to access polling stations, may well be much more comfortable
in having a mobile unit on the doorstep. The range of difficulties
that we have found, particularly from people who have onset of
visual impairment at a later stage in their lives, is the sheer
fear of going out and about, and the difficulty that people face
in doing that independently because of how dangerous crossings
are, the variety of them, but also problems such as cars parking
on pavements, cycling on pavements, which is turning out to be
a real, major issue for blind and partially sighted people, and
a whole range of issues relating to overhanging branches and dangerous
paving stones. So, in that sense, many people would feel much
more comfortable that currently either do not vote or use postal
and proxy voting, or use access to the polling station with assistance,
many would feel much more comfortable by having some sort of a
mobile unit which would bring voting closer to them.
(Ms Enticott) To add to that, I think the issue, again,
does come back to choice, that the mobile station does not necessarily
have to be the only option, so that people would be able to use
the mobile station if they so wished. Certainly the people we
interviewed, the older people, and in response to the 1997 survey,
we had responses from older people in particular, saying, "I
use the absent vote, I value it", it has to be part of the
solution and used in conjunction with improving physical access
more generally, I think, so mobile stations would have to be,
themselves, fully accessible, particularly if you are talking
about older people.
(Ms Pedler) I think, also on mobile stations, if I
could just add, very briefly, if the law were to be changed to
allow people to register at the hospital address, then, again,
you may have several people voting from that address, a number
of people, and certainly if they were detained patients they may
not be able to get out to the polling station, and a mobile station
would give them a chance to choose between the absent voting system
and voting in person.
Chairman: Mr Howarth, on the conduct of the
poll.
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