Examination of Witnesses (Questions 280
- 299)
TUESDAY 16 JUNE 1998
MR JOHN
TURNER, MR
COLIN MARSHALL
AND MR
JOHN BAMBROOK
MR DAVID
MONKS AND
MR ROGER
MORRIS
Mr Russell
280. To turn to double registration—which
obviously applies to Members of Parliament—do you think
that those who have such registration should nominate in advance
where they will cast their votes, or do they make that decision
nearer the day?
(Mr Turner) Is one considering parliamentary elections?
281. Both, in the sense that they can vote only
once in a general election whereas in a local election they can
vote twice?
(Mr Turner) Precisely—and that is the nature
of the beast. Generally speaking, without wanting to seek favours
from you, Members of Parliament are quite keen to see that they
observe the law. I cannot guarantee that students, for example,
are so efficient in asking what they can and cannot do. There
is no way, without going to inordinate and very costly lengths,
of checking that a student registered in one place has not exercised
his right to a postal vote in another area. There are some real
difficulties about double registration in so far as they affect
parliamentary elections.
282. Would you like to see a requirement that
they could exercise only one vote and would appear only once on
a register?
(Mr Turner) In terms of transparent elections where
the principle is one vote one person that is a very beneficial
move.
283. Would that cause you any difficulty? In
particular, you mentioned university students who would have a
home address as well as a university address?
(Mr Turner) They would have to elect which vote they
would use in terms of a parliamentary election. Clearly, the registration
officer for the non-election would not issue the postal vote.
They would not be on the register and a postal vote would not
be issued.
(Mr Monks) One proviso is that whatever is introduced
should be fairly straightforward and easy to operate. The last
thing that we need in current elections administration is more
bureaucracy.
284. That is what I am getting at. Would these
further requirements cause you difficulties? You have said that
perhaps they would do so.
(Mr Monks) Yes. Without wishing to be rude, over the
past few years there has been a good deal of legislation affecting
local government. I do not try to make a political point. It is
often said that such and such is to make our job easier or to
empower us or to make society better and so on. With great respect,
it does not; it just increases our costs. The question is then:
Where are the resources to do this work? Where is the grant? The
civil servants then tell us that it is all part of the RSG. We
are still waiting.
285. There would be difficulties?
(Mr Monks) I believe that we would be misleading you
if we said that it was absolutely straightforward and there was
one little form which required a tick in a box. I just do not
believe that that is so.
(Mr Turner) I do not gravely disagree with Mr Monks
as to that, except that if there is a move to a situation of a
rolling register where there is greater contact between registration
officers than is currently the case then that sits very neatly
into the exchange of information technique that is so much easier
with new technology.
(Mr Monks) What one is getting at is voting without
necessarily turning up. I am a believer in absent voting on demand,
basically. It is best to look at those problems with that idea
in mind, rather than to think, "Gosh, overseas voting is
in a mess. Let's tinker with it and try to do double registration
at the same time and introduce something on top of what is already
there." That would be a mistake. We need a much more root
and branch reform to get hold of the idea that if a person wants
to vote but cannot get to the polling station we are in business
to help that person. If he writes a letter he will be sent a postal
vote—end of argument about whether the elector is ill, a
student, an MP or someone living in Argentina. We can well do
without such complications.
(Mr Morris) There would also need to be a perception
that this was an offence, assuming it were to be an offence, worth
pursuing. I have very limited experience of ever referring to
the authorities any cases of personation, but on the one or two
occasions that I have there has been a distinct lack of interest.
Perhaps that is because they are out chasing proper criminals,
to put it bluntly. That is the public expectation. There is a
danger that we create a system like the current supposed penalties
for non-registration and failure to register which are not pursued.
There would have to be a climate in which it was worth operating
the system and people would have to feel that not only was it
fair and operable by the authorities but that it had some standing
in the eyes of the police, Crown Prosecution Service and the public
generally. At the moment I am not persuaded that it is a big enough
problem to get that worried about, but it is undoubtedly a factor.
286. Should long-stay patients in mental hospitals,
both those detained under the Mental Health Act and those on a
voluntary basis, be able to use the hospital address for registration
purposes, or on closure of those hospitals should such patients
be able to vote from the smaller units in the community?
(Mr Turner) One would argue that as long as they met
the current common law definition about their ability to understand
the process and cast a vote they should be registered at their
resident address whatever that is.
287. Irrespective of the size of the complex?
(Mr Turner) Yes. We do the same for university halls
of residence or nurses' accommodation. There is no difference
because that is where the people reside—end of argument.
Mr Linton
288. I have a number of questions on what may
be called logistical reforms. I want to follow Ms Hughes' format
and simply tell you the particular matters in which I am interested.
I do not require an answer from each witnesses on every point.
First, it has been suggested that for both parliamentary and local
elections there should be a harmonisation of hours so that polling
stations are open from 7 am to 9 pm, thus losing an hour for parliamentary
elections. Do you support it and, if so, will it have any effect
on turnout or cost?
(Mr Marshall) We support it. We do not think that
it will have any effect on turnout and that the cost effect would
be minimal.
(Mr Monks) We agree.
289. What about Saturday or Sunday voting, or
both?
(Mr Marshall) We would like to see some extended trials
on weekend voting, and the sooner the better. We have suggested
that next year's Euro elections could be an excellent experiment.
As an example, we expect to be voting on Thursday. We shall then
verify the ballot papers and lock them away until nine o'clock
on Sunday. There seems to be no reason why as a trial we should
not give returning officers the opportunity of doing that on Thursday
or Sunday.
(Mr Morris) If there is any doubt whether or not a
person is entitled to an absent or proxy vote by right under the
law for Sunday or Saturday voting because of religious conviction
that opportunity will have to be provided so that they can effectively
vote before the day that they wish to observe; otherwise, there
will undoubtedly be difficulties with certain communities.
290. The alternative would be to have Saturday
and Sunday voting?
(Mr Morris) Yes. That is an alternative but very much
more expensive way of dealing with that issue.
291. What do you say about absent voting on
demand with no reason being given? You appear to support that.
(Mr Monks) Yes.
(Mr Marshall) We support this. As an example, in Broxtowe
we achieved a 78.4 per cent turnout at the last parliamentary
election. That was in the top two per cent. We encouraged people
to apply for postal votes. I know that many applied on the basis
that they were on holiday. I am not sure whether or not they were.
I just wanted them to have that opportunity.
292. A linked question is indefinite entitlement
for those who apply for postal votes. Do you see any benefit in
that?
(Mr Morris) I believe that the law is a little confused
on this matter. In particular, since the law was changed to allow
holiday absent voting a lot of people wish to have a single specific
request for a particular election. In May of last year I came
across cases where people had absent votes for one election but
perversely not the other. These complexities are sent to try us.
I suppose that as returning officers we take perverse delight
in solving these problems, but ideally the law should be as flexible
as possible so that people can have what they want regardless
of our saying that they must have this or that.
293. The next suggestion is shorter deadlines
for absent voting. It has already been reduced from 13 to 11 days
and SOLACE suggest that it should be nine working days for postal
votes and two or three days for proxy voting. The Labour Party
has suggested that there should be six working days for all types
of voting.
(Mr Monks) I think that six may be a bit tight particularly
if it is a big election. Like all these matters, if we are given
sufficient resources we will try it but the tighter it becomes
the more postal votes there are and the greater the chance of
error. I would go for eight or nine days.
(Mr Morris) Clearly, the postal service has to turn
round the vote. Most people who go on holiday tend to leave the
Saturday or Sunday before the vote on the Thursday. Therefore,
if you make it such that the postman can deliver the vote only
on Monday and Tuesday those votes will be ruled out of the count.
That is to be borne in mind. If you have such a voter system it
must be reasonably practicable for those who are away from home
for more than one day still to return votes; otherwise, they must
be encouraged to use a proxy vote.
294. Early voting may assist a lot of people.
One may have early voting in a nominated polling station in a
constituency or in post offices, as in Sweden. There appears to
be a misprint in the AEA's evidence. In Sweden one can vote in
a post office 24 days before an election, not 24 hours. Do you
think that such a system would work?
(Mr Marshall) We think that it should be given a trial
to see the effects. It may result in only a marginal increase
in turnout, but anything is worth a try. We believe that using
council offices or satellite offices is a good idea. I am not
sure about post offices.
(Mr Morris) We agree with that. Obviously, in rural
areas where there is no post office that will give rise to difficulty;
and some post offices really do not have the facilities. But it
should be tried and encouraged.
295. But many people who may have difficulty
with absent voting cannot depend on being there when the absent
vote arrives. They will find it easier to use early voting.
(Mr Morris) They can also use proxies. They are not
denied that opportunity at the moment. In my experience, there
is a certain resistance to proxies because it is not so private
to the individual.
296. What about the choice of polling station?
There seems to be a good deal of support for this, if it is feasible.
However, SOLACE question whether one should be required to produce
a polling card if one has a choice of polling stations.
(Mr Monks) Yes. Obviously, we are trying to minimise
fraud. How many people now go into banks? A lot of people do their
banking over the telephone? How many people have cards that they
insert into machines? We live in that sort of society and we should
be using that technology for a process which is fundamental to
our democracy. If one is sent a poll card with a magnetic strip
on the back and one uses it then one is "overdrawn".
297. Suppose that it does not get there.
(Mr Monks) One must rely on the good offices of the
Post Office or have special deliveries or put more money into
personal delivery.
298. At the moment, most people bring their
poll cards. If they do not they are not disqualified and therefore
do not have anxiety about losing their poll card. If there were
a requirement to bring along a poll card it might put a lot of
people off.
(Mr Monks) Yes. That must be balanced against a possible
increase in turnout if voters can go to any polling station in
the district at the time that fits in with their daily pattern
of life.
299. But is it a really big problem if people
have a choice of polling stations and legally do not have to bring
their poll cards? Most of them will do so.
(Mr Morris) Under the present construction of the
rules, yes. One is dependent on marking up the register and that
information cannot legally be passed from one set of staff to
another, obviously for reasons of confidence. In law there is
a limited exception to that, in that if a member of staff works
at a polling station they can vote perfectly properly within the
same ward and constituency. We manage that. But that relates to
only a limited number of people to whom we have already written
for a special or different reason. In principle, I suggest that
flexibility is a good thing but it is not compatible with the
way that the current rules are constructed. If we moved to a more
broadly-based electronic method the whole scene would change.
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