Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20
- 39)
TUESDAY 30 JUNE 1998
COUNCILLOR STEPHEN
MURPHY AND
MR DAVID
WILMOT
20. The Association of British Insurers have
told us that "these clauses are difficult to enforce"
and they go on to say, "publication by insurers of details
of any particular case will only be with the specific approval
of the insured" and this is the bit, "although insurers
would not be able to prevent publication by any of the other parties".
What would you do as Chief Constable if Mr Taylor suddenly upped
and said "Yes, I will tell you exactly what I got. It was
this, this and this"? What would you do?
(Mr Wilmot) Take legal advice.
21. So you would take legal advice.
(Mr Wilmot) I would take legal advice.
Mr Winnick
22. If you could speak up a little, Mr Wilmot,
we cannot hear you on this side.
(Mr Wilmot) I would take legal advice.
Mr Cranston
23. I think that is a good answer.
(Mr Wilmot) As Chief Constable my job, and for 35
years, has been to uphold parliamentary law and the rule of law
and therefore I would agree and stick to this agreement and that
is what I have done.
Mr Corbett
24. I understand what you are saying.
(Mr Wilmot) So if Mr Taylor stood up then I would
take legal advice as to what action we could take.
25. You would take legal advice against the
background of what the Association of British Insurers has told
us about the difficulty of enforcing this if only one party wants
to change their mind about keeping things confidential?
(Mr Wilmot) Up to now this has been confidential,
it has not been disclosed.
Mr Corbett: Thank you.
Chairman
26. Mr Murphy, you were the Chair of the Police
Authority at the time the settlement was reached, is that right?
(Councillor Murphy) That is correct.
27. Are you happy about this?
(Councillor Murphy) Happy about having the confidentiality
in the settlement?
28. Yes.
(Councillor Murphy) I do not think at any stage we
were ever happy with the process that took place. As a police
authority, and certainly the leading members of the police authority
who were involved in quite a number of the discussions that took
place into the lead up to this, we always stood by the argument
that there was a case to be answered and that case should be fully
tested out through the courts in whichever way possible. At the
end of the day the decisions that were made were made on economic
grounds. You talked about figures there and we were openly given
quite astronomical figures as to the consequences and costs of
taking this case right to the end. The sad fact was no matter
what to win the case there was no way could the insurers, if they
had proceeded to the end, have claimed their costs from the other
side because the defendant effectively was on Legal Aid.
29. I understand that you are saying that you
were in agreement with the economic decision taken by the Chief
Constable, it is the confidentiality I am asking about.
(Councillor Murphy) We were in agreement simply because
we had to protect public money. At the end of the day there was
an argument going on between ourselves and the insurers as to
exactly what amount of cover we actually had in this case. There
was a vast difference between the amount that the insurers were
saying we were covered for and the amount that we and our legal
advisers believed we were covered for. That was another issue
that we were taking on board with the insurers at the same time
that this case was going on.
30. I understand that. I am talking about are
you happy with the fact that this settlement was confidential?
I am speaking to you as a guardian of the public interest.
(Councillor Murphy) As a guardian of the public interest
we had to look at all aspects. At the end of the day I did not
see any reason why they did not need to have a confidentiality
clause in there. I felt there was some comfort in having that
in simply because the case had not been tested through and if
the case had not been tested through then no-one should have the
glory of going out and saying "I have won, lost or drawn"
until the courts have actually had their day.
31. That is a point that could easily have been
made anyway, and no doubt would have been made, whether or not
the actual sums involved were public knowledge or not.
(Councillor Murphy) Not necessarily because the first
thing that you do in the newspapers is make sure that the headlines
will tell the story that the newspapers want to write and you
always have difficulty. You do not control the press, you cannot
control the process, the press will print whatever they want.
At the end of the day if it is in the interests of the press to
sell newspapers to put headlines in there of whatever figures
then they will go ahead and do that.
32. Bearing all that in mind the obvious thing
to do was to actually publish what the figures were and avoid
speculation?
(Councillor Murphy) I always thought that the obvious
thing for us in this case was to get the Legal Aid system sorted
out so that we did not have to go through this again. At the end
of the day a case like this needed to be tested all the way through
the courts. If public interest is to be served properly that is
the only way you can deal with it. Because of the way the system
operates public interest cannot be served properly.
33. Were the police authority at some stage
invited to approve the course of action being taken by the police
and their advisers?
(Councillor Murphy) No. Effectively it was out of
our hands. It was nothing to do with us. The insurers were responsible
for fighting this case. What we were party to was a discussion
as to the legalities, the position that the insurance company
was at, the reasoning behind the decisions that they were going
to make, and I did not take that on my own. What I actually did
was take on board the leaders of each of the individual groups
themselves—the Vice Chair of the authority, the leader of
the magistrates, the leader of the Conservatives and the leader
of the Liberal group—and they were all party to the final
discussions that took place because we, as a police authority,
had always stood by saying that this case had to go to the end
and it had to be completed in the courts.
34. So there was a sub-committee of the police
authority, as it were?
(Councillor Murphy) It was a group of leading members
of the police authority that actually sat and discussed the issues
with the insurers and our legal representatives and our financial
representatives.
35. And those members were aware of the amount
of money involved, were they?
(Councillor Murphy) No, we were not aware of the final
figure. We were never actually told the final figure.
36. You do not know even now?
(Councillor Murphy) It was a ball park figure. We
were all aware of where the settlement was going to come.
37. You do not know even now?
(Councillor Murphy) We have not seen the actual settlement,
it is as simple as that.
38. But you do know?
(Councillor Murphy) Do you know? I think everybody
knows. At the end of the day the figures were quite openly published
between a ball park figure and it is up to individuals to make
their own decisions on that.
39. You are saying just about everybody except
the Members of this Committee know?
(Councillor Murphy) If you pick up the Manchester
Evening News and read between the lines of what they are saying
you will probably find out what the settlement was.
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