Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40
- 47)
WEDNESDAY 20 MAY 1998
MR TOM
LUCE CB and MR
DAVID MATTHEWS.
Dr Stoate
40. Could I just ask you what steps have been taken
to provide a birth certificate to all former child migrants who
have requested one?
(Mr Luce) I think one
of the things is what used to be called the Office of Populations,
Censuses & Surveys, and now called the Office of National
Statistics, has made available to the Child Migrants' Trust microfiches
of all its birth records so that the CMT itself has direct access
to what those birth records say. The second thing is it is in
the nature of things difficult for people to trace their birth
records if, as is the case with many emigrated children, they
do not really know where they came from or what their birthday
is or any of the details that most other people would use. The
best avenue to finding out those details, if those details are
available, is through the records of the sending agencies, so
one kind of loops back to that set of issues. I think that there
are, of course, various services around the birth record processes,
tracing agents and things like that, which people can use. The
other thing I would say is that if birth records are used for
the purposes of obtaining British citizen status, the immigration
authorities in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office have made clear
that like a lot of other people who have difficulty in tracing
their exact origins, like I dare say quite a lot of children who
are in the care of voluntary bodies and perhaps even local authorities
in years gone by and who were not emigrated, domestic cases, they
will be as helpful as they possibly can be. There are a lot of
people who get British passports but who cannot find their birth
certificates and the immigration authorities in the Foreign and
Commonwealth Office are as helpful as they reasonably can be. 41.
You said that you have given such records as are available. Have
you any idea of the number of child migrants who are finding difficulty
tracing their origins and therefore are unable to obtain a birth
certificate?
(Mr Luce) I do not think
we do. We are happy to talk to the intermediary bodies and the
sending agencies to get a better estimate but as of now we do
not.
Chairman: Can I bring in John Austin with a brief
point. I am conscious of the many areas we would have liked to
have touched upon if we had the time but if you could follow up
in writing if that is okay from your point of view, Mr Luce.
Mr Austin
42. We are aware that child migrants returning to
the UK, whether they are returning for settlement or wish to research
their family backgrounds, face considerable financial difficulties,
not least of which with the social security system. Although there
may be some reciprocal arrangements they face considerable difficulties
on the Income Support side and, of course, in relation to income
related or contributory benefits. Would the Government be prepared
to consider changes in the social security regulations to allow
access to social security benefits for child migrants returning
to the UK and, if so, what legislation would you require to make
those changes?
(Mr Luce) There would
certainly be legislation necessary of some kind, I do not know
in detail what it would be. Clearly that is a difficult issue
because social security systems here, as elsewhere, are not very
easy to adapt for special circumstances and special cases, it
is basically a system that is based on legal entitlement which
returning emigrated children, like many other people who come
back to this country for very good reasons, for rather similar
purposes, do not have. 43. But in this case the Government was
responsible for their migration and their situation which is not
true to such an extent with others.
(Mr Luce) I get back to
what I would regard as the tripartite responsibility, including
the roles of the governments of the countries to which they went. 44.
But this Government has contributed to these people's loss of
rights.
(Mr Luce) British Governments
over the years have contributed to the situation they find themselves
in. I am not absolutely certain to what degree one could safely
say they suffered a loss of rights because the countries to which
they emigrated, or were emigrated, are countries with decent and
civilised social security systems of their own. I have to say
that it is bound to be a difficult issue. 45. Is it an issue which
has been considered within Government?
(Mr Luce) The point has
been raised with Government from time to time, we do know that.
The answers given have not been judged terribly helpful by the
people who made the requests. I have to say that I think the social
security system is based on legal entitlement, it is administered
through a quite tightly drawn statutory structure and people who
do not have that entitlement and are locked inside that structure
inevitably find it very difficult indeed to get the changes they
would like to see. I think it is only realistic to say what I
have said.
Chairman
46. We are most grateful for your help. Do you have
anything to add very briefly before you leave us?
(Mr Luce) We would be
very glad to help further in writing or otherwise if the Committee
wishes. 47. Thank you. Can I express, on behalf of the Committee,
our appreciation for your written evidence and your co-operation
this morning. We are most grateful to you. Thank you very much.
(Mr Luce) Can I just add
one thing. There is this sample of files we brought along from
the Public Record Office which are actually closed files. We would
be very happy for the Committee Clerk to have a look through that.
We would be very happy for the Public Record Office to give any
help to the Committee and we would be very happy in the arrangements
we have already made for people with a bona fide, like the Child
Migrants' Trust, to have access. We would be very happy to extend
that.
Chairman: We are most grateful to you, Mr Luce, thank
you very much.
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