Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120
- 139)
WEDNESDAY 4 JUNE 1998MRS
M HUMPHREYS, OAM, MR
I THWAITES, MR
DSPICER, THE HON MRS
J TAYLOR, MR
M DALTON, MR J
HENNESSEY, MR
N JOHNSTON and MRS P
IRELAND.
120. May I ask a little bit about what your mother was able to
tell you before she died about the circumstances of you leaving
Britain and going to Australia? (Mr Dalton) I was born in
1939. She placed me in Nazareth House, Finchley at the age of
about four months because, being a single mother in those days,
she just could not handle things. She put me in the care of the
nuns. When she went back to retrieve me—I am not sure of
the exact time—they told her that I had disappeared in the
evacuation. That was all. This was the nuns telling her this.
That was all she was told. 121. Presumably she believed this. (Mr
Dalton) She believed it. Where else was she going to go? These
good sisters she had put me in the care of told her. Was she going
to disbelieve them? 122. Did she assume you had just disappeared? (Mr
Dalton) She had no idea. She did assume that I was lost in
the evacuation as she was told, while in fact I was transferred
from Finchley down to Swansea. There is documentation of that.
I have paperwork signed by the nuns to say I went from Finchley
at age two. I have been to Swansea on my previous trip. I went
down to Swansea. There was a Sister Teresa there showing me her
records. You came here when you were two. You were shipped out
to Australia when you were seven and a half. 123. For five years
you were in Wales. (Mr Dalton) Yes. 124. In the same country
basically and your mother assumed you had disappeared and could
not find out where you had gone. (Mr Dalton) Yes. My mother
married in 1944 and had a first legitimate child in 1945. I am
not sure whether she ever told her husband that I existed but
my brother in a conversation with Mum actually terrorised her
to get information and this is the knowledge I have now. I have
no doubt about the truth or the authenticity of it because my
mother told me in the company of my brother that this was a fact
that she went looking, they told her I had disappeared, when in
fact they knew exactly where I was all the time. 125. Which was
the organisation which was caring for you in this country before
you went?
(Mr Dalton) The Sisters of Nazareth, Nazareth House and
Swansea was a Nazareth House as well. 126. They had the records
in Swansea. (Mr Dalton) They had the records. 127. To show
exactly what had happened in your circumstances but your mother
did not know about that. (Mr Dalton) Yes; that is exactly
right.
Dr Stoate128.
Thank you very much for that; again it was a moving account and
has informed us tremendously. I have learned an awful lot this
morning. The allegation you are making does seem quite strong.
You are saying they deliberately withheld information from your
mother. Is that what you are saying? (Mr Dalton) That is
exactly what I am saying. I have documents to prove that it is
a fact. 129. They knew full well where you were but they deliberately
lied to your mother. (Mr Dalton) They knew exactly where
I was. 130. How long afterwards did your mother find out about
you? It was not until the Child Migrants' Trust found her. (Mr
Dalton) That is true; yes. 131. Do you know whether she made
any enquiries of the police or of any other authorities or did
she just take their word? (Mr Dalton) I do not think she
did because she believed the initial story that I had disappeared
in the evacuation. Why was she going to doubt the word of the
nuns? This was the fact of the time. I might add just a little
history of my mother. She was the youngest of 10 children from
Ireland. I have since then traced through knowledge I have, I
have been over to Ireland to Kilkenny—I did send it here
in a written submission—a family tree from my grandparents,
my 10 uncles and aunties, my first cousins, second cousins and
third cousins. I have one living aunt still in Ireland in Kilkenny.
I have something like 63 living cousins in Ireland and some in
Australia but they are Irish, they are coming back to Ireland.
It is criminal to think that all those people are out there. They
told me that I was a war orphan. Those were the words we were
given. We were just told we were war orphans and that is why we
were over there in Clontarf. 132. How old were you when you first
obtained your genuine papers and knew really who you were? (Mr
Dalton) I was 56 when I met my mother. I was probably about
54 when the confirmation came through from the Child Migrants'
Trust that they had indeed found my mother alive and only living
a few miles from the address on my baptism certificate, mum's
marriage certificate, birth certificates, it was all there. They
had all this information. We were denied it. It was just a blatant
coverup, there is no other way to put it.Dr Stoate: Thank you
very much; that is very helpful.
Mr Austin133.
May I come on to the question of you and people in similar circumstances
coming here either to meet their relatives or to research their
background. What financial burden did this place on you? Did you
get any assistance financially to come to the UK in any way or
did you have to finance that entirely yourself? (Mr Dalton)
That is probably a question I would prefer not to answer in
part. I will answer the question but I financed part of my trip.
The Christian Brothers, under the guise of CBERS (Christian Brothers
Ex-Resident Services), did not volunteer assistance, but I found
out by accident that they were willing to assist; they did not
go out and broadcast the fact that they would pay a fare or whatever.
However, I did apply and I was means tested to see whether I could
or could not afford. I got an economy air fare and some accommodation
money. The full amount was A$3,200. My wife came over with me
on that. We financed our own situation. I have financed every
other visit since. That is a one-off situation. CBERS will do
it but they will not volunteer it. You have to find out and you
have to apply and you have to qualify. That is why I was a bit
reluctant to answer your question in the first place. 134. From
your experience, you have obviously met and spoken with other
people, are there clearly people who are prevented from doing
what you did for financial reasons? (Mr Dalton) Very much
so; yes, very much so. I am glad you asked that question actually.
It was a curly one and it is one that these Christian Brothers
seem to think that because they give you an assisted thing all
the problems they caused in the first place are finished. They
reckon you owe them. They actually asked me to fill out a form
when I went back to tell then what jolly good boys they were.
You can imagine what I did with that form.
Chairman135.
May I just ask, before we move on to your colleague, whether you
have any thoughts on what you feel should be done by the British
Government for people in your circumstances now? (Mr Dalton)
I have a lot of thoughts but I do not think I will tell you
most of them. I would have to agree entirely and most sincerely
with the previous speakers: the financial situation is the most
important. I have done a bit of work with the Child Migrants'
Trust in Perth in so far as when they had their premises there
we have moved and hung a few pictures around the place. It is
a never-ending battle for finance. 136. When you say "finance"
do you mean particularly in terms of the work of the Trust? (Mr
Dalton) Money. 137. In terms of financing the work of the Trust
in tracing, counselling and this sort of area. (Mr Dalton) Yes;
yes. The Perth office has been without a counsellor for about
18 months. We had a counsellor and for financial reasons that
counsellor disappeared for 18 months. We had just got used to
having someone there to talk to, someone we could trust, when,
because of the financial situation, that person was removed for
12 months and we were all talking to answering machines. The Melbourne
office, as Ian would know, was overloaded not only with their
own hassles but hassles from our side. The number of people who
can be employed by the grants which are given, the little titbits...There
is hardly enough to pay a wage let alone premises and this is
a stop/start situation which the Child Migrants' Trust have been
forced to live with. We should like to see that cease and some
real funding and long-term funding. When I say "long term":
for as long as it takes for these people to find their parents,
remembering that the last shipment was in 1967. We are not old
people. There are some round about the 45 bracket so there is
still time for them to find their people. Without the funding
the Trust is not going to be able to do it and we do not feel
like going back to the migration bodies because they are just
going to tell us the same lies they have told us all our lives. 138.
We are most grateful for your very helpful evidence. It may well
be that we come back to you later on this morning. (Mr Dalton)
Thank you for your time. 139. May I bring in Mr Johnston to
say a few words about your own personal circumstances and thoughts
at this stage? (Mr Johnston) Again, as did the other child
migrants, I thank you for this opportunity and thank you very
much to Margaret for giving us the chance to tell people who may
make a difference to our future and the future of so many hundreds
of wretches who still live in Australia. I cannot speak for the
other countries but I am sure they have their problems as well.
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