Examination of witnesses (Questions 580
- 599)
THURSDAY 12 FEBRUARY 1998
MR DOUG
HENDERSON, MP,
MR EMYR
JONES PARRY
and MS CATRIONA
LAING
Chairman
580. But, Mr Henderson, you overlook the
whole of the European Union's policies and indeed in this connection
with aid and their assistance to different parts of the world,
the separate instrument for South East Asia and the Eastern European
Instrument, is it called, or Treaty, the Mediterranean Treaty
and so on, and when we look at that overall, we see, as Mr Canavan
has outlined, what has happened. The truth of the matter is, is
it not, that the European Union actually directs its aid where
it thinks it will gain most political impact? It is nothing to
do with aiding the poorest. Is that not the real truth?
(Mr Henderson) No, I think there are different
programmes. There is the Lomé programme which is designed
to aid and to agree trade agreements with the poorer countries.
There are then other arrangements which are reached with South-Eastern
Europe and so on which have elements of support and trade preference
and so on, and the European Union is really no different from
any other major international organisation or a major, in the
case of the United States, country's approach that there need
to be relationships around the world. What is important is that
we focus on where the need is greatest and clearly the need is
greatest in the poorest countries and that is why that is such
a central part of our UK perspective as we move towards the negotiations
on developing the EU mandate for Lomé.
581. So you will be endeavouring to change
these rather stark statistics which Mr Canavan outlined to you
in fact to make certain that overall the Union actually concentrates
more of its money on the poorest of the poor? Is that right?
(Mr Henderson) Well, the Union has a responsibility
to build trade links with other parts of the world, but where
there are aid elements, then it is important that that aid is
concentrated on where the greatest need is and that is largely
in the ACP countries. If we move to a different type of regime
in the future, then there are clearly other poor countries who
are not part of the ACP.
(Mr Jones Parry) Chairman, might I just add that
the fact is that both for the disbursement of aid and for trade
preferences, there is very much an emphasis on more for the poorest.
That is very much a part of policy, but the reason you have got
the Foreign Office before you today trying to cover this breadth
of subject is that, as you asked in your question, is it true
that more emphasis should be put on the poorest, but not exclusive
emphasis precisely because the factors that come into play, by
definition, and it touches on why do we do anything in Indonesia,
it cannot just in life be solely poverty. Now, we are changing
very substantially the thrust towards more on poverty, but historically
and politically there must be other factors. If I give you just
two examples, in terms of what we have been doing in Central and
Eastern Europe, had we in 1989/90 taken just a poverty focus,
we would not have used any financial instruments to respond to
the emerging democracies and we would not have underpinned those
countries at the very time that they needed assistance, so we
needed to put in place instruments to help. We have done so and
the argument may well come now that as they have developed and
reached a certain point where they have matured into negotiations
for membership of the Union, there is a strong case for saying
that we should decrease the level of the traditional aid and replace
it by the sort of aid and agricultural assistance, for example,
which is part of the domestic policy of the European Union. In
the same way as when one looks at the Mediterranean region, the
reason we have that policy is precisely to tackle partly good
neighbourly relations with the south, but also there is a very
strong political, and I will not go into detail, but the logic
of encouraging economic development in North Africa is inescapable
if you are living in Marseilles, for example.
582. Then you are talking about migration.
(Mr Jones Parry) It is a strong incentive to say
that we have an interest in economic development in those countries.
Dr Tonge
583. Can I clarify something because it
is the language again? When you said you had put instruments in
place, what sort of instruments?
(Mr Jones Parry) I am sorry, that is the jargon
for a Community Regulation called PHARE or TACIS or the Asia-Latin
American Programme or the Mediterranean Programme which are the
legal bases which permit us to disperse funds in those countries.
(Ms Laing) Could I just add a quick supplementary
to that? The instruments of course vary depending on what that
particular country needs and can benefit from, so, for example,
in Eastern Europe a large part of the work that is going on is
a transfer of know-how in terms of trying to privatise your industry,
in terms of trying to set up a stock exchange and so on and so
forth. It is recognised that in the very poorest countries, there
is still a need for the transfer of actual financial resources
to support their balance of payments, so the instruments vary
according to what the country actually needs.
584. Sorry to smile, but we actually send
people out, do we, to tell them how to set up stock exchanges?
(Mr Henderson) Yes.
585. What a wonderful thought.
(Ms Laing) We are considered to have some expertise
in this area.
(Mr Henderson) I think the important thing is
to draw the political distinction between aid which is geared
to help poor countries and other programmes of support to reinforce
some political objectives of the European Union, like helping
the Central and Eastern European countries to entrench their democracies.
Mr Rowe
586. Can we turn now to conflict prevention?
When Clare Short has made it very clear that she supports an increased
use of Lomé funds for conflict prevention and the Commission
is proposing that under Lomé V the Community should play
a greater role in that, is it an appropriate role for the Community
to play or should conflict prevention be dealt with by the UN
within the UN system and how do you see the relationship between
the European Community aid programme and the UN?
(Mr Henderson) If one is to have a successful
aid programme, and it usually means and it has to mean political
stability to enable it to have effect and impact, and if there
are conflicts in areas which are preventing that from taking place,
then it makes sense that part of the aid programme should be used
to try to help prevent the increase of conflict in a particular
area. There are different ways that that could be achieved and
it very much depends on the circumstances.
587. How do you see the relationship between
the EU and the UN in this area?
(Mr Henderson) I think in terms of using aid programmes
to help a conflict, we are talking about very micro situations.
If there is a large-scale conflict, then clearly it is more of
a matter for the United Nations to try to prevent warring factions
killing each other and causing other human misery and if they
are successful in that, there is then a basis for aid programmes
to begin to have some impact.
588. I asked the Secretary of State yesterday
whether in Afghanistan, for example, she had people in her Department
looking beyond the immediate crisis to see whether, for example,
there is any way you could use the crisis and the Taliban short-term
ceasefire as a basis for conflict prevention. Now, do you think
that is an appropriate role for the EU to try to develop out of
a crisis intervention of this kind?
(Mr Henderson) Well, I think in terms of funding,
I do not know, let us say that the programme was funding some
assistance for law and order forces and that that was essential
before there could be any disbursement of funds for improving
houses or water supply or whatever, then I think that would be
an appropriate use where it was judged to be an effective way
in any particular circumstance and I think it is in that context
that I see that there could be a role. As for the EU playing a
political role in trying to help to reach solutions in areas of
conflict, then clearly the EU does have a role for that and under
the Treaty of Amsterdam it is envisaged that there should be more
co-operation among EU partners in building together a common position
to try to help to resolve some of those situations, but again
where there was a need for a fairly large-scale mobilisation of
forces, then that is much more a matter for the United Nations.
Chairman
589. Mr Rowe met some Rwandan students the
other day and they said that there is a great deal of thinking
in Rwanda that says, "It is very nice to see you now with
all of your aid, but where were you before the conflict arose
when we really needed help?" Is that not, therefore, a role
that the European Union should be trying to play, ie, conflict
prevention?
(Mr Henderson) I think to try to look ahead where
there is information that is conveyed that suggests, to use my
example again, if you spend more money on making sure that the
forces of law and order are properly equipped, properly trained
and properly administered, then that can help to prevent a breakdown
in law and order which is often the starting point for warring
factions, then I think if the EU can see a bit ahead of the game
on that, it is very worthwhile not only to take political initiatives,
but to provide resources to try to fill the gap in the interim.
(Mr Jones Parry) May I just add, Mr Chairman,
that there is no simple answer to the question Mr Rowe poses inasmuch
as it is very much case by case depending on the country we are
talking about. If you extend it to Bosnia, I would give you a
different answer from that in the case of Rwanda, but there is
a range of different possibilities. Part of it is developmental
aid, part of it is what is done in the Common Foreign and Security
Policy where recently ministers have adopted quite a helpful statement
on the position in Afghanistan, but one is trying to contribute
in whatever way is possible. Sometimes it is through the United
Nations, it may be the OSCE, it may be through a Community programme,
it may be through the conditionality attached to Lomé itself
that you are trying to encourage if the dispute involves a Lomé
member and you are trying to encourage good behaviour with the
prospect of a stick being used, but it all fits into an overall
picture where you are trying to pick whatever is best for the
circumstance.
Chairman: I do not
think we had better go into the origins of the Bosnian crisis
because I think the European Union played quite a heavy role in
exacerbating that situation.
Dr Tonge
590. I just wondered if the things we are
hearing about, encouraging the European code of conduct on the
sale of arms, is the new Lomé agreement going to be thinking
about this or talking about it because it seems to be the number
one thing to prevent conflict, do not give people guns.
(Mr Henderson) Well, if they do not have guns,
they might use something else.
591. You know what I mean.
(Mr Henderson) There is a strong case for building
a code of conduct on the sale of arms.
592. Which does not impinge on Lomé?
(Mr Henderson) We will be pushing that very firmly
during our Presidency and we have already had meetings with the
French Government and we have got good understandings with them
and we are consulting our other partners. It may be that there
are some implications from that on Lomé. I do not see them
specifically in relation to Lomé any more than any other
country in the world, but it is an important code and I think
it will serve the European Union well and beyond the European
Union hopefully in the future.
Mr Grant
593. The recent White Paper on development
opened up the whole issue of trade and, in particular, highlighted
the questions of child labour and workers' rights. Her Majesty's
Government has been criticised recently by the TUC for not supporting
the inclusion in the WTO of social clauses to protect workers'
rights. Can I ask you, first of all, what is the position of the
Government in relation to children and workers' rights?
(Mr Henderson) The Government very much supports
upholding rights for children in relation to employment and workers
generally. That can be done in a number of different ways. It
can be done in our own country, it can be done to some extent
through European Union agreements, and it can be done through
the International Labour Organisation. We have been hesitant to
support a social clause because it can be used as a protectionist
measure which damages the capacity of less developed countries
to build up their economies and I think that is a long-standing
argument which I remember when I read development economics 30
years ago when it was at that time a topical issue and it clearly
still is. So our view is that it is better to establish it through
the ILO and where there are ILO provisions, then we would be very
firm in making sure that they are upheld.
594. I went to a conference recently in
Strasbourg where the ILO were saying that they want a total ban
on child labour in places like India and so on. I have had representations
from people from those countries to the effect that if the children
do not work, it means that they will be put on the streets and
will turn to prostitution and everything else that flows from
that and in some instances if you have a family where there is
a widow, a lone-parent family, if the children do not go to work
and work in reasonable conditions, then of course the mother herself
has to go into prostitution and so on, so you are between the
devil and the deep blue sea, so what is the Government's view
on these matters?
(Mr Henderson) I understand the point that you
are making. It is not a new point. It could well have been applied
in the 19th Century when we were discussing some of these provisions
within our own country, that people would have starved if their
children had not gone up chimneys or whatever. I think it is a
matter of looking at the situation at the ILO and there has to
be a case-by-case examination of what is acceptable and what is
not acceptable. I would not want to comment theoretically on that.
I would want to see examples before I could come to a judgment
on that.
(Mr Jones Parry) Chairman, could I just elaborate
a little bit and say that clearly it is a very difficult problem
and, as the Minister says, there are real risks in attacking it
in a full-frontal way in the WTO because it is seen by both sides
as being protectionist. There are some countries in the developed
world who use it as an excuse to apply protectionism and it is
seen by particularly South East Asian countries as being something
aimed at them and something they fear, but there is a range of
different possibilities which the Government is pushing and those
include, one, bilateral contacts with the governments concerned,
use of the aid programme, using positive encouragement through
the GSP, building in a preference, a slightly additional preference
for countries who have good employment practices, trying in the
ILO to encourage everybody to sign up to the Conventions as there
are still gaps, contacts between the ILO and the WTO secretariats
and perhaps within the WTO itself, as individual country's programmes
and policies are discussed, the opportunity to put people under
scrutiny and ask them to defend the indefensible. That process
of peer examination may help, but we are trying to push all of
those and I would add to it trying to encourage importers in this
country to look at the employment practices of suppliers and see
whether they too can apply pressure, so there is a whole range
of possibilities, all of which would in their little way help.
595. Could we hear something from DfID because
I would like to know if there is a common policy between the FCO,
DfID and the DTI?
(Mr Henderson) There is a common policy. Let me
make it absolutely clear, there is a common policy. There may
be a nuance of explanation, but there is a common policy.
(Ms Laing) I entirely agree with that. There is,
as the Minister says, a common policy and indeed it is a policy
that we have looked at long and hard and thrashed out because
of the complexity and difficulty of the issue and the point you
make, Mr Grant, that the most difficult thing is to work out a
strategy which is not going to end up causing more problems for
children and other vulnerable workers. The only additional element
I wanted to add to what Mr Jones Parry said is to elaborate on
his last point about encouraging business here to operate responsibly.
The Government is supporting something you may have heard of,
the Ethical Trading Initiative, which is an initiative supported
by numerous well-known names, Sainsbury's, Body Shop and so on
and so forth, and the idea of this is to establish good practice,
build up codes which companies can operate with but within a flexible
framework down through their own supply chains. The Government
has put a little bit of money in to support that. It is a business-led
initiative, but the Government is giving it backing.
596. Are you taking account of the points
that I made in relation to the problems in individual countries
in relation to children and their families and so on and the traditional
ways of those countries working? In this country you have got
paper boys and girls who go out and work. If the conditions for
the children are reasonable, would you go with that or would you
just say blanketly no?
(Ms Laing) Definitely not a blanket no and indeed
the ILO Convention on this, Convention 138, recognises exactly
that and there is not the requirement on countries to introduce
legislation overnight to eradicate child labour. What countries
are required to do is to agree with the ILO a plan of action which
over time will gradually enable children to be replaced with adult
workers and so on and so forth and businesses are given guidelines
about how they can gradually replace children and are encouraged
to provide some education for children on the workplace and so
on and so forth, so it is not black and white at all, I entirely
agree with you. What governments need to do is to recognise the
problem and to be willing to respond to it.
Chairman
597. Could the Committee be quite clear
as to what your position is on the proposal to budgetise the European
aid effort because if we simply abolished Lomé and put
it on to the budget, this would of course have several very quite
serious effects, including of course giving the European Parliament
more capacity to hold the whole process to account. Do you favour
in the long run budgetisation of the European Community's aid
programme?
(Mr Henderson) I think the structure of things
as they are at present has considerable merit and I think it is
better to proceed in the way that we have traditionally on this
matter. That is certainly our objective after the year 2005 and
I think in principle one would want to continue beyond that period.
598. Can I take that answer that you are
not in favour of the budgetisation of the EDF fund of Lomé?
(Mr Henderson) The largest part is, as you know,
separated from funds generally. There are elements which could
come from other budgets, but the bulk of it is separate and I
think it is best——
599. To keep it that way.
(Mr Henderson) —— to keep it that
way, yes.
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