Examination of witnesses (Questions 120
- 139)
TUESDAY 5 MAY 1998
RT HON
CLARE SHORT,
MP, MR
RICHARD TEUTEN
and MR JOHN
KERBY
Ann Clwyd
120. I was just going to come in on insurance
premiums because we asked the Foreign Secretary about insurance
premiums and what increase there had been in those premiums since
July 1995. Obviously you have partially answered that question
by saying there has been an increase. Can you give us some detailed
information about those increases?
(Mr Teuten) It is not quite comparable information
because this is a new organisation that I am thinking of that
was not involved hitherto. Since it is commercially sensitive
I do not think it would be appropriate to mention figures.
(Clare Short) Also as we are not the lead Department.
I am sure the Foreign Office could write to you.
(Mr Teuten) It might not be able to give the answer.
Ann Clwyd: I do not
think they volunteered.
Chairman
121. They really have not tackled it properly.
For that and the building society they are saying they have no
responsibility. I suggested to the Secretary of State that he
did have responsibility. If the building society movement and
so on in this country collapsed and/or the insurance business
collapsed Government would have to do something about it but evidently
not in Montserrat.
(Clare Short) That is Treasury, Bank of England,
Foreign Office.
Ann Clwyd
122. I wonder if there was any disagreement
between yourselves and the Government of Montserrat on the current
spending priorities or whether you reached a state of accommodation
on those priorities?
(Clare Short) I think creative tension sometimes
but very much less sparks and disagreements. The last disagreement,
I think the Committee would find it interesting. People who were
living in shelters in the central region had to be relocated because
of the risk from the volcano and I was not willing to spend a
lot of money building new shelters. The Government of Montserrat
was really concerned that people moving from the centre might
then get a house more quickly than the people who were living
in shelters in the north. In the end we resolved it and we are
building the houses. I thought it was unbearable to build shelters
in order to keep the queue in place. For relatively little extra
money we could go straight to housing. We had some creative tension
out of that but since then I think we have worked very well and
the whole relationship and rational decision making is improving
all the time.
Chairman
123. You mean to say Mr Brandt is not erupting
as he normally does?
(Clare Short) I would not dream of commenting
on that.
Ann Clwyd
124. We did have an informal meeting with
some representatives of the Government of Montserrat last week
and one of the points made was that they would dearly like to
reduce dependency on the UK budget and they feel that economic
activity needs a lot more stimulation there. Clearly while uncertainty
exists, and I accept there may be difficulties, they feel that
DfID could do more to encourage that economic activity, the infrastructure
is not very conducive still and that the issues are not addressed
with enough urgency because of development criteria or guidelines
that your Department has to follow.
(Clare Short) I think that is unfair and untrue
but it is the old argument, is it not, spend more and more and
more money. When we are in this relationship you never spend enough.
I think the spend has been considerable and we are doing all we
can within the constraints to provide all the basics. As I have
said before, no-one can put back everything that Montserrat had
before and there is no way out of my budget that a new city could
be constructed in the north of Montserrat, that that would in
any way be a responsible use of Department for International Development
funds. Some of the tension, the request for more and more spend
and the promise that one day Montserrat will be viable is just
a natural part of the political relationship. You can see the
figures. The spend per head is very considerable. It is lucky
in a sense that the population is so small that we can afford,
therefore, in terms of spend per head to be generous. If there
was a very large population on this island the whole situation
would be very much more difficult and it would not be possible
to spend at these kinds of levels per head.
Chairman: If we divide
58 million by 3,600 I do not know what figure we come up with
but it sounds to me as though it is well over a million per head,
is it not?
Mr Grant
125. No.
(Clare Short) No, it is not that much. £20,000
per head, something like that.
Chairman: Sounds a
lot of money to me.
Ann Clwyd
126. I know the housing programme is moving
faster and obviously we are pleased about that but there are still
500 people remaining in shelters. I think the only Government
primary school on the island is still being used as accommodation.
Some church buildings are still occupied. We found the conditions
there pretty appalling. I wonder how you intend speeding up the
housing programme. If 500 people are still in shelters that is
pretty unsatisfactory.
(Clare Short) It is indeed but you have to appreciate
that since your visit we have had to move people from the centre.
This crisis keeps getting more difficult. The need for construction
of new housing enlarges as a new area of the island becomes dangerous
to inhabit. A considerable number of houses have been built and
we are keen on more progress. I am also keen on this: people of
Montserrat were famous for their building skills and we are very
keen to have a self-build programme for those who are fit and
young and able, clearly that does not apply to the elderly, as
part of the options for the future so that it is not just dependency.
Could you give the figures on where we are on housing and how
much better we have performed?
(Mr Teuten) There are 50 houses now ready for
occupation.
(Clare Short) Could I just add. Part of the problem
has been land availability and preparing the land and the number
of workers available. It is not just a budgetary decision of my
Department, there have been constraints on getting the land ready,
having workers to do the work, there are constraints of that kind
as well.
Chairman
127. Electricians and plumbers.
(Mr Teuten) Fifty houses at Lookout are available
for allocation this month. A further 100 should be available in
August and a further 50 later in the autumn. There are also a
further 30 at Look Out being provided, system built houses provided
by CARICOM and the Government of Jamaica, and a further 70 funded
by other sources[16],
and 50 beds at the Red Cross-DfID funded Golden Years Home should
be available imminently for elderly people. We are also preparing
an extension of the materials grant project which will enable
more people to build their own houses and we are hoping to be
able to come to a decision on the soft mortgage project by the
end of this month as well, which will provide another means for
people to build their own houses. These, taken together, should
provide sufficient housing for virtually all families left in
shelters at present.
(Clare Short) And when will that be complete?
(Mr Teuten) By the end of the year.
(Clare Short) So we are getting there and, as
I say, we did have the new crisis of having to evacuate the centre
which gave us a new headache.
Mr Grant
128. I wonder if you can tell us about the
allocation of housing because, you remember, you sent an expert
down there to advise because they do not have municipal housing
or anything like that. Can you tell us how that has gone because
there was some reference from the Foreign Secretary about Mr Brandt
being a bit concerned about the allocation of houses and people
getting houses?
(Clare Short) I will ask Richard Teuten to talk
on the detail of the allocation policy, but this is the disagreement
that I just referred to when we decided, because of the scientists
saying that there really was a danger in the centre, that we had
to make it a priority to move people out of the shelters in the
centre, and Mr Brandt and the Government of Montserrat were keen
that they should be relocated into new shelters, otherwise they
would get ahead in the queue of people who further in the north
were waiting in shelters and we had a disagreement then on allocation
which I think must be the issue to which the Foreign Secretary
was referring and to which I referred earlier. The truth is that
the marginal cost of making houses rather than shelters was relatively
low and I was not willing to spend the money on shelters just
to keep the queue in place, so that was the disagreement we had
over allocation which was resolved. Could you say something more
generally about the allocation moves?
(Mr Teuten) They are evolving. A quite complex
set of criteria was adopted for the first 50 houses in Davy Hill
which took account of the length of time some had been in shelters
and the condition in which they were living and that worked, I
understand, very well. The consultant you mentioned recommended
simplifying those procedures and essentially focusing on the length
of time in shelters. The Government of Montserrat has used those
criteria in allocating the first 50 at Lookout, but it has also
given priority to individuals in key positions, like nurses and
policemen. The 100 system-built houses that I referred to at Lookout
will be allocated to those people in the central zone shelters.
129. So they have not done a key workers'
scheme so that they can get priority over other people?
(Mr Teuten) Well, some of them will have been
in priority groups anyway. For example, nurses with children would
be a priority group in any event.
(Clare Short) But the answer is yes primarily
and that is a Government of Montserrat decision rather than ours.
(Mr Teuten) Yes, very much so.
(Clare Short) Could I just say one thing on education
because I realise I did not respond? Of course there was all the
disruption to education about which we were all concerned, but
there are now 500 children being educated and there has been some
kind of inspection of the results and they were quite good, so
remarkably, despite all the disruption, with the fine record that
Montserrat has educationally—and I must say some of the
Montserrat children are in Ladywood and they are stars in the
classes in which they are—it has got a very strong educational
tradition which seems to be re-establishing itself and people
are continuing to do well, despite the disruption.
Ann Clwyd
130. And everyone who requires education
are able to get it on the island?
(Clare Short) Yes, up to secondary level. I think
tertiary is very limited and they have to go elsewhere.
Chairman
131. On the CARICOM housing, I notice that
Jamaica is providing five, so where are the others coming from?
(Mr Teuten) CARICOM.
132. Well, CARICOM is a big place.
(Mr Teuten) We do not know the distribution of
contributions within the Caribbean countries.
(Clare Short) CARICOM is handling the relationship
with us because we have to prepare the sites.
133. Yes, but CARICOM has a miserable reputation
of not taking any decisions if it can possibly avoid it and since
Jamaica has taken the decision to provide five, what is CARICOM
doing about the other 20?
(Mr Teuten) The other 25. I must admit, we have
had some difficulties in establishing exactly where the action
lies. The Jamaica Defence Force have visited on at least two occasions
to prepare for the installation of these system-built units, but
we do not have a firm date for the arrival of those units as yet.
134. Might I suggest that you pressurise
CARICOM to make some decisions otherwise it will be some years
hence when these units arrive, I can assure you.
(Clare Short) We hear what you say, Chairman.
135. Guyana has a lot of timber so Guyana
might be a proper source for it—I do not suppose they have
been asked yet.
Ann Clwyd
136. Originally when you first came before
the Committee obviously there were lots of concerns about the
way that aid was administered and so on and you had those concerns
yourself obviously. Are you satisfied now that the delivery of
aid to Montserrat is streamlined and efficient or are there still
any deficiencies from your point of view?
(Clare Short) One should never say any system
is perfect. I experienced the frustration myself from the minute
we formed the Government that the layers of decision making were
such that even when I took hold of the situation and made some
decisions it still took ages to trickle down through the system.
We stripped out layers and layers to get an efficient decision
making structure. I am sure it makes decisions more coherently
more quickly and it is a great improvement. One could never say
things are perfect. There are natural tensions in the relationship
by the very nature of the decisions that have to be made, the
nature of the crisis and the problems and the nature of the dependence
on resources for our budget and the natural desire to maximise
resources and our need to be responsible about the expenditure
of public money. I think the set-up now is efficient and as good
as we can make it but I am always open to suggestions for improvements.
137. Last year you said you were going to
Montserrat and then you did not. Have you got any plans to go
there?
(Clare Short) No, I have not. It was when George
Foulkes was visiting Montserrat and he said I would go and then
the Foreign Secretary was considering going and, as you know,
the Foreign Office has the lead responsibility for relations with
the Overseas territories and the co-ordinating responsibility
within Whitehall and it was right that the Foreign Secretary should
go otherwise it misrepresents the kind of authority I have got.
I have no plans to go. If there was something useful I could do
by going I would most certainly go. I think it was much more important
that the Foreign Secretary went because that symbolised where
the responsibility lay. It helps everyone to know the nature of
the decision making.
Mr Grant
138. Can I ask you about the relocation
package, where we are up to. This is to Antigua.
(Clare Short) To Antigua or elsewhere.
139. It was for six months, was it not?
(Clare Short) Absolutely. Some people have pressed
for the continuation of what would not be a relocation package,
it would be a kind of social security system into the indefinite
future for people who have relocated in the Caribbean and I am
afraid I do not think that could possibly be seen as a proper
expenditure of Department for International Development funds.
On the other hand, we cannot have vulnerable people simply left
stranded and therefore we are doing two things. UNICEF is doing
a study of everyone, where they are and how they are, to look
at their needs and how we can provide help to make them more viable,
so it might be child care for someone or micro-credit for someone
else. We have also launched a fund to deal with the emergency
needs of vulnerable people. That is the way we are going to proceed.
I am very keen to make sure that no-one is left stranded but that
we do not have a complete system of dependency and hand-outs and
inappropriate use of DfID funds into very long years ahead conceivably.
16 Note by witness: There are in fact 50 funded
by other sources. Back
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