Examination of witnesses (Questions 140
- 159)
TUESDAY 5 MAY 1998
RT HON
CLARE SHORT,
MP, MR
RICHARD TEUTEN
and MR JOHN
KERBY
140. It sounds a bit mean spirited to me
not to extend it beyond the six months knowing that the question
of employment opportunities and business opportunities is quite
limited in Antigua.
(Clare Short) I do not agree with that. It was
always called a relocation package. If you remember the very origins
of it, it was that prior to the election quite a lot of people
had relocated from Montserrat either to Britain or to the Caribbean
under their own steam without any assistance. My concern was that
lower income people might not have had the same opportunity to
choose to leave the island and either come to Britain or relocate
in the Caribbean because they could not raise the funds to make
the move. The relocation package was always intended to create
that opportunity. It was never a social security system, so people
have been assisted to relocate and obviously the people who are
in Britain have their rights of access to the benefit system that
there are in Britain. One of the terms of reference of the UNICEF
study is to look at how far people on other islands can have access
to the rights of people who live on those islands, but we are
also putting more resources in to try and do our best to make
sure that people are helped to not be dependent, to be able to
be self-sufficient and earn their own living, and then there is
a final fall-back, so if anyone is in difficulties, there will
be some funds there to make sure that they are not left destitute.
I think both personally in principle as well as in terms of what
is a proper call on the DfID budget, that is a better way of proceeding.
141. Therefore, am I to understand from
that that the people in Montserrat who were recipients of some
kind of aid, either vouchers or funds of one sort or another,
are they going to be cut off too?
(Clare Short) The people in Montserrat that are
on food vouchers and various other forms of assistance?
142. Yes.
(Clare Short) No, what we are doing is commissioning
a study to look at all of that, the social security system and
how it can be improved. I feel myself that food vouchers is a
terribly old-fashioned way of giving people assistance and that
there are probably better ways of doing it. Of course all sorts
of decisions were made in the nature of the emergency, so we have
recently commissioned this review, and again I think we are going
to give you the terms of reference for this review of the social
welfare system on Montserrat. In the meantime, everything will
proceed as now, but the question is again whether we can look
more long term, whether there are better ways of doing it. Have
the food vouchers come to an end?
(Mr Teuten) It has been changed into a cheque
system.
(Clare Short) I am not at all keen on a food voucher-type
way of proceeding myself.
143. So there is a kind of welfare system
if you are still on the island, but if you are off the island,
you are on your own?
(Clare Short) You are not on your own. That is
a misdescription of what I have just said.
144. Unless you are in severe difficulties.
(Clare Short) You will be given assistance if
you are not already in a position to be independent. A lot of
the people who moved were very fine builders from Montserrat who
are much in demand in the Caribbean because of their skills in
building houses, so not everybody is completely dependent and
lots of people moved without any assistance and chose to move
under their own steam, but for anyone who remains in difficulty,
we will make support available to help them to be independent
and then there is a final fall-back for those who cannot leave
to make sure that they are given some assistance.
145. But still on the theme of Montserratians
in Antigua, when we last reported as a Committee, you had dispersed
£1½ million of the £3 million of funds that were
available for Antigua. Could you tell us whether the second £1½
million has been dispersed? If so, which projects has that gone
to?
(Clare Short) I think most of it has been dispersed,
but I will bring Richard in. We gave some figures, or was that
in a Parliamentary Question that I did it recently? I am sorry,
I thought it was here[17].
(Mr Teuten) It is committed rather than dispersed.
Nearly all of it has been allocated to projects and they are now
beginning to be under way.
Chairman
146. The entire £3 million?
(Mr Teuten) Yes, allocated, but not dispersed,
to education and health projects.
(Clare Short) Health and education, and those
are the two services that were said to be under strain because
of the increased population and we needed to strengthen the health
and education systems in order to provide services for the people
from Montserrat. I have got some figures here and I think it is
the last paragraph of the note which has been circulated to you
on where we are in the allocation of that money and if you want
any more detailed information, please just let us know and you
can have it of course.
Dr Tonge: I am very
pleased to hear that because when we were in Antigua, there was
a lot of confusion and doubt as to whether this money had been
received or whether the Antiguan Government view was that it had
been received. Do you remember this, Bernie?
Mr Grant
147. Yes, it was a major issue.
(Clare Short) Well, the money was announced, it
was welcomed, and we are, if I may say so in all humility, well
known for our capacity to disperse funding very quickly, so if
there were delays in the system, they are not all from our side
of the fence.
Dr Tonge
148. No, I did not think it was from our
side when we were out there.
(Mr Kerby) If it is any consolation, perhaps I
can tell the Committee that I have actually stood in a classroom
financed under this grant, and I have also spoken to the Antiguan
Minister of Education who does know very well what is being done.
Mr Grant: I suspect
that if they were not getting it we would have heard by now.
Chairman
149. The interesting thing is looking at
the figures you refer to, in paragraph 43 on regional projects
it says "We have announced a package of support measures
to help integrate Montserratians into the Antiguan economy. This
not only included a £3 million grant to strengthen health
and education systems, but also up to £1 million to assist
Montserratians establish small-scale businesses." That sounds
to me like £4 million.
(Clare Short) Yes. This is the same theme as the
line of Bernie's questioning earlier. I am very keen rather than
giving people hand-outs indefinitely and make them dependent,
to maybe spend a little bit more but give them the chance to be
self-sufficient and set up their own businesses and not be dependent.
We did allocate extra money to assist people to set up their own
enterprises.
150. How much has been dispersed?
(Clare Short) £410,000 approved for the first
year of the scheme.
(Mr Teuten) We have consultants finalising the
detailed design and they are submitting a report in the next couple
of weeks. We hope to start implementation this month.
151. Design of what?
(Mr Teuten) The small business programme.
152. What about the £3 million?
(Clare Short) £2.68 million has so far been
allocated. Beyond the figures there I do not have more information
but if you look at them and you have any more questions we will
be more than happy to provide them.
153. I would just like to know what it is
being committed to.
(Clare Short) It is basically health and education,
the £3 million, and the other money is additional.
154. Yes. Antigua does not have a particularly
good reputation for spending money on those things which other
people have given them money to spend on. I am very keen that
you should make certain that it is actually spent on what you,
Secretary of State, have agreed that it should be spent on.
(Clare Short) If I could say diplomatically, we
are aware of the record and we are doing our best to ensure the
money is spent on the agreed objectives. I think we are fairly
confident that we have got procedures to ensure that is done.[18]
Mr Grant: Chairman,
could I interrupt. You are making a number of libellous statements
against CARICOM and various Caribbean governments, it is lucky
that they cannot sue for libel.
Dr Tonge: You said
what I was afraid to say.
Chairman: I have been
in the Caribbean for a long time, Mr Grant.
Mr Grant
155. May I ask you what about St Kitts and
some of the others, have they got funds as well?
(Clare Short) No, basically. The numbers are small
and we said if anyone has any claims and can show real strains
on their system we will look at them. I am also keen, if I may
say so, that it is not "Oh, good, we have got some Montserratian
evacuees, let us get some money from DfID". It should be
"we have real need" and if there is anyone with real
need we have to look at it.
156. Yes. That is part of the relocation
package?
(Clare Short) The relocation package is available
to everybody who needed it.
157. I think that has gone to the governments.
(Clare Short) No.
158. Apart from Antigua.
(Clare Short) That is right[19],
but Antigua took the big numbers as you know.
159. There was also agreement that some
part of the debt could be written off or something, has that happened?
(Clare Short) Antigua? That was part of the package.
(Mr Kerby) Two years' worth of the aid debt that
was owed by Antigua to Britain has been written off. That has
been done.
(Clare Short) There were some disagreements because
of the record the Chairman referred to but because of the strains
on Antigua because of the Montserratian refugees we took a more
generous view.
17 See Evidence p. 34. Back
18
See pp. 43-44. Back
19
Note by witness: Antigua is the only country where DfID
has provided a Government to Government grant. Back
| 
