Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20
- 39)
WEDNESDAY 24 JUNE 1998
Rt Hon Clare Short, Mrs Barbara Kelly, and Mr Graham
Stegmann.
Chairman
20. I do not think it is valuable to go into this
in too much detail. I think Mrs Kelly has told the Committee that
there are enough aircraft but there was not enough permission
to fly those aircraft, but that changed from day-to-day and it
gradually increased. Is that your understanding?
(Clare Short) If you have the money
you hire the aircraft. We get commercial aircraft and we buy them.
They are not sitting there waiting. If you can get the access
and you know the need is there, you can get the aircraft and send
them in. So money is there for food, money is there for aircraft.
It is getting a proper measurement of need, getting access, getting
it in. But it still remains true that it is a very inadequate
way of dealing with the scale of this crisis and it would be much
better if we could get the truce and get in large supplies.
21. The aircraft are an inefficient and costly means
and inadequate means of getting it into the area. That is what
you are saying, is it not?
(Clare Short) Absolutely, but of course
we will use them in increased numbers.
Chairman: As you get permission.
Mr Grant: I do not accept that. That is not
my information. Is it possible for us to get evidence from the
government of Sudan to tell us what is the position in relation
to this?
Chairman: The Committee will have to confer
on that, Mr Grant. We will certainly consider it.
Dr Tonge
22. I wanted to ask two more questions about access,
Secretary of State. Firstly, you mention in the memorandum that
there should be a lot more use of trains, but I understand from
people out there that the trains are used to arm the two sides
in the civil war and really are not a safe form of transport.
I wondered if you had any comment about that and if that situation
had changed. Secondly, a number of NGOs, some of them local to
Sudan, are operating outside OLS and I wondered if DFID was actually
helping them because again I understand from people who have been
out there that often the NGOs operating outside Operation Lifeline
have got better access to the more remote areas. I was wondering
whether we are helping those NGOs as well.
(Clare Short) On the first question
of the trains being used to move troops in as part of war fighting,
that is absolutely right. That is why we need a truce or a corridor
of tranquillity or an agreement to bring in a train load of supplies,
not bringing in soldiers and fighters and not attacked by fighters.
The beauty of the train is it could bring in very vast quantities,
but trains are used in a military way and it would have to be
by an agreement that it was about bringing in food for people
and not advancing the cause of either side in the course of the
war because people do fight over food supplies in the course of
a war. Secondly, there are NGOs operating outside Lifeline Sudan.
I have a list of some of them here. Operation Lifeline Sudan has
been negotiating with both sides. This is a very difficult situation
and we have to keep the access and not have either side targeting
aid workers and humanitarian workers in order to get supplies
through. So we have to keep some neutrality and provide need on
both sides. There are partial NGOs, there are NGOs that are closer
to one side or another and I think we have to be careful in operating
through them for those reasons. I do not know if you would like
to hear from Barbara a little bit more.
(Mrs Kelly) It is difficult. As the
Secretary of State says, it is the issue of maintaining neutrality
of Operation Lifeline Sudan. It is very fragile. We certainly
do not rule out funding competent neutral NGOs. What we do is
we seek the advice of OLS because they have a sense of whether
funding in a particular situation will endanger the whole operation.
So we take a pragmatic view and look at each proposal on its merits
and ask OLS to give us their advice on the sensitivities surrounding
the particular proposal.
23. I wondered why there was very little response
last October when the NGOs appealed and warned that there was
going to be a crisis in Sudan. Was that to do with access or the
political situation or what?
(Mrs Kelly) We have actually looked
at the relief web site and gone through very carefully what information
we had last October. What we had was an advanced notification
of the UN appeal which eventually came out in February. In fact,
the draft we saw in December was basically the first notification
we had had that there was going to be a very serious difficulty
in this particular region1.
24. In December?the months between April and October
were going to be really crucial there. We made a pledge as soon
as the appeal was issued in February in order to ensure that we
were first in line, we were the first donor and that the appeal
had funds in order to begin their work and their planning for
the April to October period. So it informed our process.
Mrs Kingham
25. I find it quite ironic that we are focusing so
heavily on access in this investigation because from past experience
and reading that I have done I realise access is always an issue
in disaster appeals. In fact, access to food is one of the main
causes of famine. It is quite often not the case that there is
a total lack of food in a country but that people do not get access
to the food. What work is your Department doing in relation to
the Foreign Office and other government departments to ensure
that access to food for countries like Sudan is not such a difficulty
in future? It is quite ironic that we have got such a packed room
today and there has been such a media outcry about this as an
issue, but there has not been such an outcry over the past 15/16
years as this war has been going on and people have not had the
access to the food and they have not had a ceasefire. What are
you doing in your Department to make sure that that debate takes
place and we can avoid ending up in a room like this again on
issues like Sudan and others where the media interest is focused
on immediate access and not in preventing these famines from happening
in the first place?
(Clare Short) Despite some of the media
misrepresentation, I think one of the benefits of the argument
that has gone on is that Sudan and what is needed and what the
answers are is now a front page political issue. This war has
been going on for 30 years. Mr Olara Otunnu, the Special Representative
of the Secretary General for Children in Armed Warfare, has been
in London recently and he has visited Sudan and he said he met
people called the Kakua people (and he is originally from Northern
Uganda) and three generations have been displaced in Sudan as
a consequence of the war. My own engagement came over this crisis.
What I found was the world creaking up to do its humanitarian
thing again and no political energy to do anything about the underlying
crisis because it is so complex and because it is so difficult.
What I have been trying to do is to get some will into the system
to attend to the causes of the problem. This area is in this trouble
because it was fought over by a faction that changed sides and
spoiled the territory, uprooted people and therefore they could
not plant. I agree with you that is the issue and I think if we
can get the temporary truce and get food through to the people
who are hungry now, if that is the first chink of political action
to get political progress in Sudan, we could build on that to
get more will, to get some progress towards a peaceful settlement,
because anyone who thinks this problem will be resolved by fighting
has no concern for the real interests of the people of Sudan.
But it is very difficult both in terms of the situation in Sudan
on both sides and the low will of the international political
system and we have got to do all we can to crank that up and it
is beginning to happen.
26. Can I come back on the Foreign Office. The political
will has also to be here as well as being with the NGOs and the
international community and they have ignored it for too long.
(Clare Short) That is quite right. We
have had a number of meetings with Foreign Office officials. We
planned to try and use this meeting in The Hague to get the truce
which is to get food to people and it is the first political move
on which we may be able to build if we get some kind of political
process working. Derek Fatchett went to represent our Government.
Our two departments are working very closely together on it. I
have had a meeting when he came back. We have planned what will
happen next. He will be part of the delegation going from the
Friends of IGAD. He is also going to visit Washington for other
purposes and will have discussions with the State Department.
So the two departments are working now together strongly but we
need all the help we can get to push this issue up the political
agenda.
Ann Clwyd
27. Everyone agrees that ideally the conflict should
come to an end. Would you not agree in the short term we have
to get to people who are dying and starving and the fastest way
now of getting that food to them is by air? It is in fact the
only way at this moment in time.
(Clare Short) Obviously I agree to that.
That is what we have been doing. We worked for and pushed and
criticised the government of Sudan for not allowing the access.
Then they changed their position. We have been putting up funds
for foods and flights and we are doing so again right now. Of
course no matter how many fights we get in it is a very imperfect
method of getting food to very frail and hungry people dispersed
over a very large territory. Of course we are putting everything
in by air we can but we should at the same time work for the better
thing which is a truce or a corridor of tranquillity to get bigger
quantities in. We should do both and that is what we are doing.
It would be helpful if others would back both tracks because that
is the best way to get relief to the people of Sudan.
28. Would you not agree that there is a shortage
of planes? The people on the ground say there is a shortage of
planes. We need to deliver far more than we are at present. Should
we not be asking for more aircraft as the people on the ground
are?
(Clare Short) I think, Chairman, I have
already dealt with this question. There is a shortage of approval
for flights to take place. There is not a shortage of planes.
Planes are bought for money. But of course we had a problem with
the World Food Programme's estimates of need which were too low.
So we went through a little phase where they were saying we now
have enough flights and we now have enough food and our official
went there and said: "This is not true. The children are
being underfed at 60 per cent of body weight," and we asked
the World Food Programme to reassess. They came out with a larger
assessment. That means then they agree (because they have to be
part of the operation) that we can apply for more flights and
we can fund more planes and we are in the process of doing that
right now. We have been working like that from the very beginning.
Chairman
29. Did Mrs Kelly not say to us that you had already
ordered more planes?
(Mrs Kelly) WFP have already started
to contract more planes.
Chairman: So you are getting more planes.
Ann Clywd
30. Can I ask one other question. The government
in Khartoum has approved every flight request to Bahr el Ghazal
which is the worst affected area but OLS flew to less than half
the destinations they requested in April. Are we using that air
capacity to deliver food to the full?
(Clare Short) As I have just said, chair,
as you all know the government of Sudan did not initially approve
flights and then after the first round of pictures and public
concern they did and access improved. We then got statements from
the World Food Programme and OLS that they had adequate flights
and food. Then we got the evidence which I reported to Parliament
during Question Time that that clearly was not so from the reports
of my own officials. You can imagine we, I and my officials, get
in touch with the World Food Programme and ask them to reassess.
That was done. Then we can get a demand for more food and then
we can ask for more flights and that has been the process.
Ms King
31. Clare, I am really pleased that you have been
able to focus attention on what is never a media-friendly subject
under normal circumstances. In terms of actually seeing how DFID
gets it information, because I think we all agree there is a difference
in perception at the moment, certainly as of yesterday OLS is
currently 54.8 per cent funded and when I was there I saw both
problems. You are entirely correct to say there is a problem of
access although the definition differs. Would you say there is
a problem of both access and if OLS are only 54.8 per cent funded
that there is a problem getting those resources where it is? The
second point I would like you to address if possible is the mechanism
that DFID uses to actually get the information from the people
on the ground from the agencies on the ground because, as I said,
I think we do have clear differences in opinion in Victoria Street
and back on the ground in Sudan.
(Clare Short) I do not actually think
that the people who are working in this situation have differences.
They describe different needs and problems and the words are understood
in different ways. So the UN makes appeals for a year, of course,
and therefore says: "We have appealed for X which is enough
to supply a year." Countries like us are putting up the resources
that are necessary, and other countries too, but then I say the
problem is access not money and a row breaks out and parties that
are involved in fund raising want to say and believe that the
problem is money and you get a great muddle in how people refer
to different bits of the information. There is a problem with
UN appeals. When the first appeal is made, when money is pledged
they do not count it for public purposes until the money is spent
so they know of money but in public statements it is not included.
I have had a discussion with Mr De Mello who is the new Head of
the Humanitarian Co-ordination Office who fully accepts that part
of the reform and improvement of the UN system and tighter co-ordination
is tightening up on all these things. So there has been a problem
and a public row and there may well be people on the ground in
Sudan who have not got enough food to give to people who think
the problem is money and people can genuinely think that. Between
the World Food Programme and UN people there is no fundamental
disagreement about the nature of the problem. The second part
of your question is about the methods we use to get information.
We, of course, are absolutely hooked into all the UN appeals and
the whole UN system. The Department can move over the weekend
when it is not able to be in touch with me and we are honed up.
If there is an earthquake in Afghanistan the Department can turn
things around in a matter of hours and get aeroplanes and food
and move things in a most impressive and highly professional way.
We have to rely on the appeals and information that come properly
through the UN system and through Operation Lifeline Sudan. In
this case it was our official who came back with the information
that the appeal was too small. That was a malfunction. It was
not that donors were not willing to give money; it was that the
official appeal was asking for too little.
32. In terms of the actual mechanism you have an
official who goes out there on what basis? Was that a one-off?
I am trying to understand how the NGOs and DFID work together
in terms of relaying the information.
(Clare Short) Can I just say about the
whole UN system, we have close contacts. I can ring up (and have
in the course of this) heads of UN agencies. They come through
London and I see them. We have very good communications right
across the international system. There are problems about the
efficiency of some of those systems but we can ring New York,
Washington, Rome, and we can get information very quickly. On
that level the communications work. That is not a problem.
Chairman
33. Surely if that is the case, Secretary of State,
there should never be a difference between your assessment and
their assessment? What has arisen in this case is a difference
of opinion between yourselves and the World Food Programme as
to what was required. You only learnt that by sending someone
there.
(Clare Short) We did and then I rang
Rome and we asked them to look again and they did. They have people
in Rome, they have people in Sudan. They have got communication
questions but they reassessed and went for the bigger appeal.
34. Do you get information from other sources such
as British Government sources in Khartoum or elsewhere?
(Clare Short) The Ambassador in Khartoum
has been very active and very committed and went on visits and
sent reports of his worries about the problem of children's body
weight and parts of the system that were not working well, yes.
35. That is how differences arise then on information
because they are coming from your own sources?
(Clare Short) This is a moving situation
of course. The World Food Programme making an appeal earlier,
that might have been right at the time. Then we might get more
up-to-date information more quickly but they might be moving also
because if we have got it and we have not heard from them we will
get in touch with them.
Ms King
36. Could I request if it is possible or available
that we have a diagram or some sort of information or chart flow
showing how DFID and the NGOs work together? Would that be possible?
(Mrs Kelly) Many of the sources of our
information are sitting in the room behind me here, the usual
suspects. We meet the NGOs regularly on all sorts of levels. Many
of the things that they have said to us have prompted us to send
our relief rehabilitation field manager to look at a particular
area. The link is very close. It is at all sorts of working levels
within my Department. And they also link very well in country
with our ambassador in Khartoum, with our staff in Nairobi who
look after the Lokichokio side of the exercise. I can willingly
send you a list of people who we deal with if that would be helpful1.
(Clare Short) There are a lot of informal
arrangements, but we are doing a consultation on how we can work
together more strongly to build a civil society and we will review
those flows of information both here and overseas. So we have
them, but we are going to strengthen them and make the flows more
transparent.
Mr Grant
37. I am confused with what the Secretary of State
is saying. The Secretary of State has said that the problem is
not money or resources. The people on the ground are saying that
the problem is money and resources. Can I ask the Secretary of
State if the problem is access to money and resources? You could
have £1 million in the bank, but if you cannot get at it
you might as well have nothing. Could you tell us whether the
problem is access to money and resources?
(Clare Short) No, Chairman, the problem
is exactly as I have described it. There was the problem of getting
flights in initially which public opinion helped to change by
getting permission from the government of Sudan. There was then
a problem of under-estimation of need by the appropriate UN agencies
that had to lead to a review and a wider appeal. Then they had
to apply for more flights. Then the government of Sudan gave permission.
We are applying for more right now, but there is a continuing
problem and that is that bringing food in by plane is not the
best way to get it to very dispersed hungry people. The answer
to the question is the answer I have already given.
Mr Grant: Could I just follow up on that?
Chairman: I think the Secretary of State has
answered your question.
Mr Grant
38. The message I am getting is that the Secretary
of State is contradicting the brief that I have here. It says:
"In 1997 UNICEF's programme only received 42 per cent of
the requested funding for 1997," and it talks about the fact
that the UN only received 30 per cent of what it wanted and so
on. There is a direct contradiction here to my mind. This is what
I wanted to get explained. It seems as though I am not able to.
(Clare Short) You are able to, Bernie,
if you will listen to the answers. I am not saying that for everything
UNICEF has ever asked for everywhere in the world we have said
there is an open cheque book—
39. This is in relation to Sudan.
(Clare Short) Or even in relation to
Sudan. We are saying the problem is not money but access in relation
to the emergency that is in Sudan now and the emergency appeal
and when it started from.
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