Examination of witnesses (Questions 80
- 99)
WEDNESDAY 13 MAY 1998
MR FINLAY
SPRATT and MR
JIM SMYTH
Mr Barnes
80. Last week I was the member of the Committee
who asked the management the questions on civilianisation so shall
we start by pursuing that. You were making some comments, I believe,
as I got here late. What is the Prison Officers' Association's
view generally about civilianisation?
(Mr Spratt) The Prison Officers' Association is,
believe it or not, not opposed to civilianisation. We see the
need and we see the merit. There is no justification for paying
prison officers £30,000 a year when you can get the job done
for £15,000. We accept that entirely. In fact, we accepted
that from the very outset. I notice Mr Shannon makes reference
in this Report to pushing through and replacing clerical prison
officers with clerks. That is a total misconception. It was negotiated
with the Prison Officers' Association. We endorsed it and we agreed
it so there was no opposition from us. We have always said we
would bring in civilians. We agreed not so long ago to bring in
civilian nurses, so there was no hassle from the Prison Officers'
Association. There is a report out at the moment being done and
if that recommends civilians—— It is very hard for
us to justify and argue that we should pay our prison officers
£30,000 a year, when the job can be done for £15,000
and it does not need the skills of a prison officer. People may
not want to believe it, but we always pride ourselves in the Prison
Officers' Association in Northern Ireland as being very responsible
people. We work in the public domain. We realise that the public
purse will be no different from the hospitals, the education and
so forth. That is why I object so strongly to a programme that
there was to bring in for hospitals, that they were going to increase
the budget. So we have no objection to civilianisation where it
is appropriate and where it is necessary.
81. Could you say a bit more about civilianisation
as far as nursing is concerned? I raised it a couple of times
in the questions last time, although I did not get full answers
in connection with this. You have made in your submission some
considerable statements about the nursing problem.
(Mr Spratt) We had a problem in the Northern Ireland
Prison Service some years ago where there was a lack of hospital
officers. Again, coming back to the point which Mr Donaldson asked,
there was no training provided to hospital officers so we had
nobody to do the job. They approached me as Chairman of the Association
and said would I agree for them to recruit, on a temporary basis,
X number of nurses to do this job. I said this was not a problem.
We have to provide health care. There is no problem with prison
officers. They then appointed a Head of Nursing four years ago
to the Northern Ireland Prison Service. I have to say that in
four years I have seen no improvement in the health care delivery
in the Northern Ireland Prison Service. I have not seen what this
individual has done for the benefit of hospital officers and for
the people that we care for. There is absolutely nothing. We have
had on-going discussion with the Department over health care and
we have said, "Look, we have X number of prison nurses who
we term as hospital officers who do not have full nursing qualifications."
It is interesting to note that out of possibly 60 hospital officers,
there are 16 of those who were fully qualified nurses when they
came into the Prison Service, but down through the years the Prison
Service refused to allow them adequate training and to maintain
their United Kingdom CC registration, so over the years that has
lapsed. We said, "You have to consider these people who have
been here for years. They have been delivering the services right
through the hunger strike, the dirty protest and down through
the years. On 1 December 1997 at a meeting at the Northern Ireland
Office they agreed the principle that they would recruit qualified
nurses; and they would also incorporate our existing hospital
officers and we would retrain them to the NVQ level 2, which is
now accepted by the United Kingdom CC as a qualification. Anybody
who wished could go on to NVQ level 3. That was on 1 December.
When I left the meeting Mr Brian White who is, in fact, the Director
of Policy and Planning, said, "Mr Spratt, would you come
back with a proposal as to how we can incorporate what we have
just agreed today, the principle of hospital officers and recruitment
nurses." They agreed to recruit nurses on prison officers'
terms and conditions because to be a nurse in the Prison Service
you need to be multi-skilled. You need to have the discipline
side and you need to have the nursing side. I agreed with them
that they did not need the same standard of training as a full-blown
prison officer, but just enough to handle the people. That was
on 1 December. They said, "Will you come back with proposals."
Well, I am not expert enough, Chairman, so this Association went
out and employed the services of a consultant; a lady who was
employed by the Sandown Nursing Group, who was the Chief Executive.
We brought her along and she visited all the sites in Northern
Ireland and compiled a report. What she said was that we had adequate
resources, we did not need to recruit any more, all we needed
to do was to have more emphasis on health care and more training.
She suggested we could train our existing hospital offices up
to NVQ level 2 in 18 months. With the nurses we had in we could
send people away whose qualifications had lapsed. Now we went
back to the Northern Ireland Office and I have to tell you, Mr
Barnes, that the meeting fell apart. They totally disagreed and
said, "We never sent you away." I said, "Are you
telling me then that I employed a consultant and you did not ask
me?" They denied ever asking me to do that. The Head of Nursing
spent her whole time picking holes in the consultant that we had.
The meeting broke up and I said, "Look, there is no point
in me trying to achieve anything." I notice Mr Shannon says
here that they are coming back with new packages. All I was trying
to do was to save the tax payer in Northern Ireland another £1.1
million. They certainly did not agree with my costings. I can
assure you that I have spent a lot of time with those costings.
I have been in the Prison Service for 20-odd years and I can assure
you of that. It is entirely the Northern Ireland Office who have
been completely dragging their heels over health care.
82. I will move on to another issue but
generally what you are indicating is that there are problems again
about management in connection with civilianisation, but you are
not opposed to the moves taking place. It is the methods by which
it is being approached.
(Mr Spratt) If I could explain to you why I said
that in that perspective. If you bring in a civilian nurse into
a prison environment, who has no prison knowledge, prisoners will
end up—— If you put in a civilian nurse you must put
in a prison officer to look after her. To me that is crazy, that
you pay two people to do the job. We also have principal officers
who have been in hospital for quite a number of years. They talked
about putting alongside him a qualified nurse to manage the nurses,
so you are going to pay two people to do the job. This is the
kind of exercise they have been at. Now, my idea has been that
you cannot bring a civilian nurse into a prison environment and
then provide an officer to look after her. My idea was, bring
her in, give her a prison officer training to a certain standard,
just to do her job, and then put them in all one team because
you end up with two teams—a team of civilians and a team
of prison officers—which will just not work. It will just
collapse. That is the reason for it.
83. What I want to move on to is related
to what you are saying because you are arguing that there is a
lot of low morale, as you said earlier, in connection with problems
that are essentially management problems. Now when we visited
the Maze, Magilligan and Maghaberry, we certainly got the feeling
that redundancy was a very major concern there; redundancy, because
the staffing needs under the Belfast Agreement had changed the
situation very, very considerably. So they realise that there
is this downsizing problem, which is likely to make redundancies,
and they are unsure what their future is. Now, that is like an
extra factor on top of management problems, or it might be a management
problem associated with it, depending on how it is handled. Has
the Association been consulted yet on downsizing? Its prospects?
What are your views generally about this?
(Mr Spratt) I will clarify a couple of points
in your question, this low morale issue. Let nobody tell you that
the low morale issue is about this redundancy programme. It is
a whole different game. The low morale issue has nothing to do
with redundancy. Let me say quite clearly that at the Prison Officers'
Association we realise there are going to be redundancies of prison
officers but we wish to face it in a very positive manner. If
that comes about I can assure you there is no prison officer in
Northern Ireland worried about the redundancies which are coming
up. This is a process that we have input into. It is a process
that if we complain with this hand we are seen as not keen on
letting prisoners out, so in the political dimension we cannot
enter that. We are not concerned about the Peace process and possible
redundancies. The only thing that we are concerned about is that
when that comes, that the prison officers in Northern Ireland
are looked after in a proper fashion and we will deal with that
issue later on. So the morale issue, the redundancy has never
been a morale problem. There are so many who would take the redundancy
it is unbelievable, so I do not see it as a morale issue or the
new one which is coming up.
84. Is the issue that you will feel about
morale related to the position that you put down in the paper
that you presented to us? We are talking about the escape of prisoner
Averill who said it is due to the appeasement of paramilitary
inmates. Do you feel that is a considerable factor in connection
with the low morale in the Maze?
(Mr Spratt) Certainly the morale of prison officers
in the Maze and prison officers in general, let us clear something
up here. Everybody seems to think that if you work in the Maze
prison you are the only person who suffers. I have a list of officers
here who have been murdered through this campaign and I can assure
you that they do not all come from the Maze. They come from Magilligan,
Belfast, Armagh, and all over. It is a wider issue. But the morale
of prison officers, certainly in the Northern Ireland Prison Service—because
I always maintain the quality of the morale depends on the quality
of the leadership—unfortunately, in the Northern Ireland
Prison Service, quite a number of years ago, the message was sent
out to paramilitaries, "Shoot a prison officer and you'll
get what you want." That is the reality. That is what happened.
Every time they shot a prison officer they got what they want.
But when the morale of the prison officers went down in the Maze,
they have been at me so often and they know we have put so many
recommendations to the Northern Ireland Office and every time
they were laughed off. We talked about securing the roof even
before Wright was murdered. We were ignored. We even had a Health
and Safety recommendation in 1995 which, in fact, is law, which
said that the roof should be secured. It never was done. So our
officers in the Maze see all this happening. They see all the
appeasement which goes on. What better way than to push morale
of prison officers? Prison officers say, "What is the point
of me troubling? What is the point of me doing my job because
the people above will not support me doing the job." That
then feeds out through all the establishments because there are
many other issues in all the other establishments where concessions
are made to prisoners. Officers are struggling, trying to do a
job, and not being adequately supported. Let us be fair about
it—not just by the management of the Northern Ireland Office—but
also at local level who are following the policy. As I said earlier
on, by taking away that rank of chief officer, the prison officer
has nobody to relate to and he has nobody to go to. I may see
all these Governors following the Northern Ireland line but the
prison officers are at the bottom and they are continually pushed.
So certainly yes, the morale goes down when you see prisoners
who can dictate and basically do what they want.
Mr Browne
85. The evidence that we have suggests that
there are 1,600 prisoners in the Northern Ireland prisons but
there are about 3,000 prison officers. That is a unique situation,
as far as I understand it, in the ratio of prisoners to prison
officers. It does not only apply, of course, to where the prisoner
is held because the prison of Magilligan has a very high ratio
of prison officers to prisoners as well. What explanation do you
have for that inconsistent ratio?
(Mr Spratt) Mr Browne, as I said earlier on, prisoners
in Northern Ireland, whether at Magilligan or at the Young Offenders
Centre, believe it or believe it not, all have a paramilitary
allegiance, one way or another, although they are sentenced for
another crime, coming in for burglary and so forth. Therefore,
there is always a high level of security needed to deal with that.
But in relation to the overall picture, as I have always said,
we can have the same ratio of prisoners to officers in other jurisdictions
provided we are prepared to deliver the same regime. For example,
if a prison in England is short of officers what it will do is
to close down a wing. We cannot do that in Northern Ireland because
if we do that there are repercussions outside. The Maghaberry
fires, these prisoners are so motivated politically in every way
you can think of, that they will get up to whatever mischief and
you just could not risk it. We cannot do the same in Northern
Ireland as what you can do in Scotland or England or Wales, unfortunately.
Therefore, there is always that need for a higher ratio. Plus
the fact that we have a lot more security required when you go
outside on the streets to take prisoners to court and so on. We
have a big court commitment to Northern Ireland when you have
to delegate. The fact is that if you look at the situation at
Magilligan, and you actively consider how many officers are actually
at the coal face, the sad thing is that it is just about 50 per
cent of last year. There are a lot of officers taken up on other
duties. So this is why there is a high ratio. But if you actively
compare the ratio of prison officers dealing with prisoners at
the coal face and compared with those dealing in Scotland or England——Let
us look at Maghaberry, for example. The Maghaberry ratio would
compare favourably with Frankland, which was bought as a replica
of Frankland. If you look at prison officers at the coal face
dealing with prisoners, that ratio compares very favourably with
the other outside business that we have to deal with, courts and
so forth.
86. The fact that at the coal face the issue
of prison officers compares favourably ——
(Mr Spratt) Yes, it does.
87. —— with prisons in both
Scotland and England, does that not, to a large degree, contradict
the part of your answer in that there are greater risks, in fact,
in being at the coal face in Northern Ireland?
(Mr Spratt) No, I do not see the point that you
are making. It depends on what particular establishment. If you
talking about Maghaberry, yes, there are different types of prisoner
in Maghaberry as in Magilligan. Therefore, you can balance what
you need more at Maghaberry than you do at Magilligan. Coming
back to the point you are making, our figures dealing with prisoners
day-to-day are favourable. If you look, (I do not know in the
English system), every prisoner in Northern Ireland gets a visit
every week. I do not what happens in the English Service. That
takes up quite a lot of staff. If you examine and check the figures
working at the coal face with prisoners, they compare favourably
with any establishment in England, Scotland or Wales.
88. I want to understand what your evidence
is on this subject. You have said to us twice that all prisoners
in Northern Ireland prisons have paramilitary connections.
(Mr Spratt) Yes.
89. All of them?
(Mr Spratt) No, I did not say that. I said that
all prisoners in Northern Ireland would have a paramilitary connection.
You can get a prisoner in Magilligan who is in for burglary and
he could have paramilitary connections. He does not belong to
the organisation but if you have a situation in a prison in Northern
Ireland the prison will split. One will go way and one will go
another. That is reality.
90. Are you saying that all prisoners in
Northern Ireland will come from one side of the general divide
between nationalist and unionist, or are you saying that all prisoners
in Northern Ireland have paramilitary connections or links? I
want to be very clear what your answer is.
(Mr Spratt) What I said was that most prisoners
in Northern Ireland, whether they be in Magilligan or in the Young
Offenders Centres, would have paramilitary connections—not
necessarily involved and going out and bombing and shooting or
blowing people up—but if there is an incident in prison
they will split one side or the other, no matter what establishment.
The only ones who are left out of that are sex offenders. That
is reality.
91. I have to say we have limited experience
but actual experience of being on the wings of both Maghaberry
and Magilligan and in my case the Maze prison. I have been in
prisons on a number of occasions in both Scotland and England.
I did not get a sense of danger from your officers and the members
of your Association on those wings in Maghaberry in the relationship
with the prisoners.
(Mr Spratt) Well, let me put it this way. When
we go down the wings we do not live consciously that we are always
in danger on the landings, let us make that clear. We have a job
to do. We mix with the prisoners. The job of the prison officer
is much easier when you have interaction between prisoners and
officers. There is no point in saying that officers should be
in the wings of Maghaberry or Magilligan with constant fear all
day. As a prison officer I would not accept that. However, what
I am saying is that the prisoner element in Northern Ireland,
whatever side, when push comes to shove they will always have
that allegiance to one side or the other.
92. Is that then your justification for
treating all remand prisoners within the Northern Ireland system
as being either a high or medium security risk?
(Mr Spratt) I am not in a position to answer your
question because I do not determine whether a prisoner is high
risk or low risk. That is totally out of my control.
93. Does your Association have a view about
this?
(Mr Spratt) Again we leave that up to the appropriate
people who are qualified to decide whether it should be a high
risk. We have a saying in Magilligan, for example. When they bring
prisoners down the hulk in Magilligan prison the cabin goes down.
We have no input. Whatever they decide, what carrier they wish
to hold, that is up to them to decide and we have to administer
it.
94. But you are the representative of the
Prison Officers' Association and you have considerable personal
experience of the prison service in Northern Ireland. Is it your
view that all 250 remand prisoners in the Northern Ireland Prison
Service have to be treated as either high or medium security risk?
(Mr Spratt) Again I would not be aware of the
type of crimes that they have committed and what relation and
what category they could be in. We have had experience in the
past. Yes, they seem to be able to down-grade the category when
it suits them if they want to move to them to different establishments,
but unfortunately we do not have an input into it. We have never
been involved. So I cannot really answer your question because
I have no personal experience of deciding whether that prisoner
should be category A, category B, or category C.
(Mr Smyth) In actual fact, when different categories
have been sent out to hospital and they have needed staff to guard
them, it was the staff association at that station which asked
about approaching the Northern Ireland Office to have them look
at their category, so that they could be released under personal
parole if they had no more charges against them. This is because
it was costing staff resources and putting pressure on staff during
the day.
95. So there is a recognition then is there,
Mr Smyth, that if the categorisation, particularly over remand
prisoners, could be finer and identified as to those who are a
possible risk, this would put less pressure on staff? Is that
what you are saying?
(Mr Smyth) I was not actually talking about remand
prisoners. That is entirely different. I was talking about sentenced
prisoners. If we were sending a sentenced prisoner out, if he
was sentenced it meant you had to send someone who was going to
hospital with an escort. But if he was in for his last six months,
they started to look to see if they could release him if he had
no other charges outstanding. So it means that he could be released
on his own parole and it does not cost staff resources.
96. You will recollect of course that this
question, when I started to ask it, was about remand prisoners.
There are 250 remand prisoners in Northern Ireland and they are
all categorised as either high or medium security risk with all
the resource implications that that has, and I was asking if your
collective experience, your Association's experience of that regime
has generated any view, but it apparently has not?
(Mr Spratt) Well, because, Mr Browne, quite simply,
we have never been involved in that area. In fact I do believe
that the categorisation of remand prisoners is not the responsibility
of the Northern Ireland Prison Service, but it is actually the
responsibility of the RUC and they actually categorise them. It
is only when they are sentenced to prison that we or the Prison
Service would then come into it.
97. I will just move on to ask you about
convicted prisoners then if you are right, Mr Spratt, that either
most or all of the prisoners in Northern Ireland have paramilitary
connections, then this question may be redundant, but if you are
not, has your Association ever given any thought to whether or
not the estate of prisons in Northern Ireland would benefit from
having a low-risk or an open prison?
(Mr Spratt) We have argued, Mr Browne, going back
to when John Hall, if I remember rightly, was Deputy General Secretary,
so I am going back about six, seven or eight years ago, we have
always argued that we felt we should set up an open-type prison
in Northern Ireland, but people always argued against us, that
the security climate in Northern Ireland at that time did not
allow for that. We were always of the opinion that in Northern
Ireland in many cases if we lock prisoners away, we do not prepare
them for the community that they are going back out to in many
instances, and even that related to terrorist-type prisoners.
We have argued for many years for the setting up of an open-type
prison in Northern Ireland and the fact is that Mr Shannon alluded
to that in his report, he talked about Foyle at Magilligan which
is the nearest we can get, but certainly we have always believed
that there should have been an open-type prison in Northern Ireland.
98. So you would be supportive of that sort
of development, say, for example, Maghaberry being managed on
that sort of basis?
(Mr Spratt) Yes, we believe that there is a need
and a possibility that we could have an open prison and we have
always argued that point.
99. Finally, could I ask you something about
the Maze Prison which arises from the Narey Report? There is a
recommendation in the Narey Report that the differences in the
running of the Maze should be publicly acknowledged and that that
would allow the staff to stop feeling ashamed at their perceived
failure to run the Maze like a proper prison. You remember that
recommendation presumably?
(Mr Spratt) Yes.
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