Examination of witnesses (Questions 200
- 221)
WEDNESDAY 17 JUNE 1998
MR MIKE
PEPPER, MR
WILLIAM SLOAN,
and MR PAT
MAGUIRE
Mr Hesford
200. Welcome, gentlemen. Good evening. The
questions I have concern leadership and the way forward. Do you
agree with this sentiment, that there was a lack of communication
between yourselves and the very senior management, and that is
Mogg and Shannon, there was a lack of trust between yourselves
and Mogg and Shannon, and that those senior managers, in effect,
would not listen to what you wanted to say and did not take on
board what you tried to input into the management of the system?
How do you react to that?
(Mr Pepper) The first point, in terms of communications
with Mr Mogg and Mr Shannon, we do not wish to personalise any
of this at all, but we have had communications regularly with
the Chief Executive, Mr Shannon, and with Mr Mogg, as Director
of Operations, and those communications were quite regular; we
will not say that we agreed on everything, in fact, very often,
we agreed to disagree. So the communications were there, yes,
we did communicate quite regularly, there was no difficulty with
the communications; it may well have been the other issues that
were the problem, such as trust, for example. As far as Mr Mogg
is concerned, as Director of Operations, we had no difficulty
in our relationships at that level; we did have some concerns,
however, surrounding Mr Mogg's appointment, and that was nothing
to do with Mr Mogg, he was quite an innocent party in this particular
one. We started to have problems over trust at the time the post
of Director of Operational Management was being trawled, UK-wide,
and this is going back to, I think, 1994, yes, four years ago,
and we were assured by the Chief Executive that no decision had
been taken, we, in fact, had a meeting with him and he assured
us that no decision had been taken in terms of who would be appointed.
Two days later our local branch chairman was attending a national
executive committee meeting when he saw a sheet of paper with
Martin Mogg's name as being the successful candidate on it. That
was the type of thing that led to difficulties in trust between
ourselves and particularly the Chief Executive.
201. And the third part of my question was,
your input, or your attempted input, was that taken on board,
or did you feel that it was taken on board; because I would remind
you that you said, earlier on, very early on, that you do not
feel you were listened to, those were your words?
(Mr Pepper) I will give you a prime example of
that, in actual fact. Last September we had a meeting with the
Chief Executive concerning Mr Mogg's appointment as Governor of
Maze, and in effect having a dual role as Governor of Maze and
Director of Operational Management. We were extremely concerned
about this, from a couple of points of view. We highlighted the
point that, as far as we were concerned, no one person could possibly
do the two jobs; the reason for that was, one, workload, and the
second reason was in terms of operational responsibility. Our
major concern was that here we would have a situation, if anything
serious happened in Maze, who would the Governor of Maze then
turn to, in terms of the gold, silver, bronze command structure.
We offered other options at that time, which included trawling
other Services in the UK, if there was no-one suitable in Northern
Ireland then trawl the Service in the UK to see if we could attract
a suitable candidate for Maze, or indeed appoint the existing
surplus Governor One, who was currently at headquarters, and get
him to take on that role. Frankly, our advice was ignored. We
are not suggesting that the events that occurred in Maze during
December and January would have happened had Mr Mogg been there
or not been there; how the incidents may have been dealt with
may have been somewhat different.
202. Do you have continuing confidence in
the Director of Operations?
(Mr Pepper) As an Association?
203. Yes?
(Mr Pepper) We have never taken a vote of confidence
in any individual, whether that be the Chief Executive——
204. It is not the individual, well, it
is the office and the individual?
(Mr Pepper) Well, the office, the office or the
individual; we have not done it in respect of the Chief Executive,
although we were accused of doing it, at the time of our Association
Conference in March, but we have never actually done so. And,
as far as Mr Mogg is concerned, in his capacity as Director of
Operational Management, from an Association point of view, we
have never taken a view on it. If you are asking me as an individual,
I could give you an individual response, and that is, I am quite
happy with Martin Mogg's performance as Director of Operational
Management, but that is purely a personal opinion, we have not
an Association view on it; after all, at the end of the day, Mr
Mogg is one of our members.
(Mr Sloan) I endorse, Mr Hesford, certainly what
my colleague has said there, but from the point of view where
the Director of Operations is attempting to do that job and to
do the job also of the Maze Prison, neither of those two jobs,
at this moment in time, can be done on a full-time basis, and
so both of them are being done in some way on a part-time basis.
And we have spoken earlier on, in relation to the Maze Prison,
of the number of terrorist-type prisoners that are there and the
difficult role that that post holds. And our Association at that
time did quite strongly inform the Chief Executive that as far
as we were concerned both jobs could not be done by one person,
and, indeed, in the Narey Report, on page 46, paragraph 7.14,
Narey backed that point up, by saying: "Martin Mogg has,
as a temporary measure, held both the role of Head of Operations
and Governor of the Maze for about four months. We consider that,
despite the improvements he has made, it is an impossible burden
to carry for more than a few months, he should be returned to
his headquarters post as soon as a new Governor for the Maze can
be found." And what we are saying is that when we initially
said to the Chief Executive in September, "Look, these could
be the pitfalls that, where you have a Director of Operations
and also being the Number One Governor in the Maze, anything that
develops or any operation decisions that will have to be made,
how can you expect a man who is in charge of the Governor One
post at the Maze but also holding the post of Prison Operations,
to make a good decision when he is attempting to wear both hats
on a part-time basis?" And we make no reference to the individual
or to his qualities whatsoever, it is the fact, and Mr Mogg himself
does realise that it is impossible to do both jobs.
(Mr Maguire) It is fine. As far as we are concerned,
the only time that there was some expression of a lack of confidence
in Mr Shannon was with regard to an industrial relations issue,
which was over pay, so this Association has not expressed a lack
of confidence in Mr Shannon for any other reason.
205. The point has been made to the Committee
that one reason why people in the Service in Northern Ireland
may have a lack of confidence in the senior management is that
the Chief Executive is, and has been, a career civil servant.
Do you have a comment on that?
(Mr Maguire) Certainly, we would accept that the
Chief Executive is from the mainstream Civil Service. What we,
as an Association, would like, and would have liked to have the
opportunity of an input into, was having an operationally-focused
individual, dare I say, someone of the calibre of Richard Tilt,
Director General of the England and Wales Prison Service.
206. Without wishing to personalise these
issues?
(Mr Maguire) Exactly; it is the operational focus
that we would like to see, and who better than someone who has
either come up through the ranks or gone through and had the experience
of governing a prison.
207. Would you have any objection then,
if there were such a person and if that were to be the process
in future, to people from outside the Northern Ireland Prison
Service?
(Mr Pepper) We would have no difficulty at all,
simply because our view is that the individual should have operational
experience, in terms of running a prison, knowing how the staff
think, knowing how they feel about particular issues, being able
to relate to staff, which is pretty important. We are not concerned
whether that individual comes from another Service at all, whether
it be the Scottish Service or the Prison Service in England and
Wales.
(Mr Maguire) But certainly the person has to portray
and show visible leadership, and that is not a criticism, per
se, but we would like someone who could quickly gain the credibility
of all staff and be able to meet people on level terms and have
a greater appreciation of the work, the very good work, that the
prison staff of all grades in Northern Ireland do.
(Mr Pepper) If I could just add, Mr Hesford, the
sort of criticism that we have been implying of senior management
in headquarters does not apply to all. There is certainly one
individual, that we all know, who has not been with the Service
very long and who has taken time to visit staff on the ground
during serious incidents, at various times of the day and night,
he has taken time out to talk to them, and his role is finance
and estate management, it is not personnel, it is not operational
details, but that is the sort of individual who can come down,
relate to staff, and, okay, he may well be a civil servant, and
certainly our preference would be for somebody who has operational
experience, but visible leadership is probably the most important
factor.
(Mr Maguire) And if I could just add, Mr Hesford,
just continuing on from my colleague, that, certainly, when an
individual like that comes down, particularly during some incidents
and very hot times, the staff I know personally have actually
said to me that they welcomed having someone come down, even to
sort of vent their feelings and frustrations, and I think that
is very important. And, certainly, the evidence, it has been seen
how effective that can be.
208. It has been put to me, certainly by
some of your membership, on visits to establishments, that Shannon
has never talked to them, they have wanted to, but he has never
even looked as though he would ever talk to them. Do you have
a comment?
(Mr Maguire) I cannot really comment on that,
Mr Hesford.
(Mr Pepper) We cannot say in what circumstances
those may have been under. Certainly, as a committee, we all know
Mr Shannon, we do meet with him on a fairly regular basis, we
meet him at other functions outside the Association roles, so
we do have that contact; he is known to us and us to him. Whether
that applies to all members of our Association, or not, I could
not honestly say.
209. You have indicated a lack of trust,
an absence of managerial hands-on experience, to some extent,
I suggest, a lack of communication. Do you believe that those
are features which are absolutely vital to the Prison Service
in the post of Chief Executive for the future of the Prison Service?
(Mr Maguire) Certainly, I think we would believe
that they are essential qualities of leadership, and you can only
lead by example, I believe. And, certainly, we would want to see
someone who had an operational background, was more operationally
focused and could sort of lead the Service right through into
the next millennium. Certainly, we would be putting that forward.
I realise that the post of the Chief Executive is being advertised
in the near future, and certainly we would have hopes for the
future that we get the right person to lead us.
210. Finally, Chair, if I may, I am confused,
in your evidence, although I understand a reticence, but I am
confused, in your evidence, because I focused on the two senior
posts in the Prison Service, leadership, I made that clear at
the outset, I am confused as to the confidence that you and your
members have, when you told a colleague of mine earlier on that
what you had to do, in effect, to try to understand certain issues,
was talk to the Minister, and you felt relieved in having the
opportunity to talk to the Minister, because, in effect, you could
not talk to your own bosses. Can you comment?
(Mr Sloan) What I was referring to was, Mr Hesford,
in saying that we have had the two meetings recently with the
Prisons Minister, one was at his invitation, prior to the publication
of the Narey Report coming out, and the second one was a request
by us to speak to the Minister after the Good Friday Agreement
and the likely impact that it would have on our members. The previous
statement that I made in relation to a previous Prisons Minister
refusing to meet with this Association, it was from the point
of view that our national Chairman had attempted——
211. No, you said the management did not
want you to; you asked, and it was blocked off. And we are talking
about current management?
(Mr Sloan) It would be our perception that that
particular meeting was blocked off, for whatever reason.
(Mr Pepper) Certainly, when we were talking about
communication, communication has to be a two-way thing. As I have
said, earlier on, we have met the Chief Executive on regular occasions,
both wearing our Association hats and wearing our operational
hats, he is known to us quite well. We are able to communicate
at the management level, there is no difficulty with that at all;
where we seem to have difficulty is whenever we attempt to undertake
Association business in regard to matters such as pay negotiations,
looking at staffing complements for Governors, looking at transfer
procedures, that type of thing, it is in the industrial relations
area that we tend to have real difficulty. Operationally, the
lead is expected to be given by the Director of Operational Management;
however, the policy under which the Service operates comes from
the Ministers through the Chief Executive, in broadest terms,
and is narrowed and tied together by the Chief Executive and the
Senior Policy Group, and that is basically how the business of
the Service is done. It is not a democratic organisation at all;
views are taken into account, certainly, on management issues,
but our perception, as an Association, is that when it has come
to matters in which we have an interest, as an Association, very
often those matters tend to be ignored.
212. That must have affected morale?
(Mr Pepper) It has, yes.
213. And morale must have, in turn, affected
operational efficiency?
(Mr Pepper) That is very difficult to say. I could
not say whether it has or it has not. It could well be we are
too close to the coal-face to see it.
Mr Grogan
214. Two very different questions, really.
One of our other inquiries is into the composition, recruitment
and training of the RUC. I wonder whether similar issues have
any sensitivity in the Prison Service, the composition of prison
officers, the make-up of the prison Governors, and so on; is it
a sensitive issue and one that is addressed?
(Mr Pepper) There are two answers to that, really.
One is what might be difficulties for the Prison Service, as a
Service, and what might be difficulties for the staff and Governors
in the Service. If I take it from the staff's perception and the
Governors' perception, initially, there are no sensitivities,
it is really a case of, we almost like to think we have a proud
tradition and that there are two things that we do not get involved
in, and that is politics and religion, and never mind the impact
on any members of staff, we cannot afford professionally to be
seen to treat one group of people any differently from another,
we cannot afford to do that. As far as the Service is concerned,
certainly the Service, and we are acutely aware that there is
an underrepresentation of minority groups within the Prison Service,
it is pretty much a male-dominated organisation, the number of
female staff that we have is quite low, I cannot remember the
actual percentages, and the number of Roman Catholics we would
have in the Service is quite low. Although, having said that,
just as an example, we have no actual figures to back it up, but
it is a guesstimate, because, again, as I touched on, it is not
a sensitive issue, as far as we are concerned, but actually the
number of Governor grades who would come from the Catholic minority
is actually relatively higher than it would be for the rest of
the Service. So we do not regard it as an issue, as far as the
Association is concerned, as far as the staff of the Service are
concerned, but the Service does recognise it has a problem in
terms of the underrepresentation.
215. Just to clarify there, did you say
you do keep figures, or you do not?
(Mr Pepper) We do not, not as an Association;
certainly, I do note, I think it was in the submission by Mr Shannon
that figures were quoted. I cannot argue with those figures, I
am not in a position to.
216. And the second, completely unrelated
question was, one of the distinctive features of the Prison Service
in Northern Ireland, I understand, is the treatment of sex offenders,
and so on, that there is no segregation, as there is in England
and Wales, for example; does this cause particular problems, what
are the reasons for this, and what is your view, as an Association,
of this particular policy?
(Mr Pepper) One of the reasons that we have avoided
segregating sex offenders is that we have always taken the view
that it is better in the longer term for that individual to mix
in normal association with others; that individual would have
to do that in the outside community anyway, upon release. But,
in really practical terms, because we have had other areas of
segregation, the mind has been focused, if you like, on the paramilitary
side. Where an individual is seriously at risk then obviously
we take steps to ensure that individual's safety, where it is
known to us. But, generally speaking, we feel that the policy
that we have had in terms of keeping sex offenders within the
main population has actually worked quite well.
Chairman
217. I have a couple of final questions
I want to ask, myself. As Mr Browne was out of the room, at one
stage, it is probably worth my saying that, in answer to a question
about whether the Northern Ireland Prison Review constituted any
form of threat, Mr Pepper did make a response about the consequences
in Scotland, and I draw your attention to that piece of evidence,
and if you want to come in do not hesitate to do so. I will, however,
get on and ask the two questions I was going to ask. What view
did the Association take of the Narey Report?
(Mr Pepper) As far as the Report itself is concerned,
and I may well pass over to Mr Maguire to take us on shortly,
but as far as the recommendations themselves, the security recommendations,
if you like, there was nothing that was any real surprise to us,
they were the type of thing that we would have expected because
we had come across these types of reports before. I will say perhaps
what we were pleased to see, and that was the recognition that
the Maze is different, and that has now been put to the public
and that has actually helped to lift the self-esteem of staff.
However, we have to be a bit critical about the way the inquiry
was actually conducted, from the point of view of our members.
For example, none of the Governors who are on the middle management
grades, who were criticised in paragraph, I think, 7.5, 7.6, of
the Report, were actually interviewed by Martin Narey. The Governor
who was actually in charge of dealing with the incidents in question,
the Governor in charge of the prison in those days, at that time,
who was in the command suite——
(Mr Maguire) Specifically—sorry—on
that answer, Mr Brooke, specifically with regard to managing the
incident on the death of the prisoner, as opposed to the Averall
escape.
(Mr Pepper) That individual was not interviewed
by Martin Narey. The duty Governor, who was in charge of the prison
on the day that the prisoner was shot, was not invited to give
evidence to Martin Narey; he actually had to physically seek out
the inquiry team himself and give evidence. We had an expectation
that representatives of this Association would be invited to give
evidence to the inquiry team; that did not happen, and by the
time we raised the matter with our Chief Executive it was too
late, the inquiry was over, so the best thing that we could do,
and it was an afterthought, was ask our General Secretary to make
representations on our behalf in London. But the main thing is
that, our main reservations about the Report are concerned with
the criticisms of middle management, which contain impressions
rather than fact, and, in fact, one of the overall impression
which the Board of Visitors share is a negative one. I am afraid
our inquiries with the Board of Visitors in Maze do not support
that at all. And I will pass over to Mr Maguire now.
(Mr Maguire) In fact, just carrying on from that
point, Mr Brooke, the Residential Governors, who represent some
of the middle management referred to in the Report, actually spoke
with leading members of the Board of Visitors, and they, in front
of them, denied that they supported Martin Narey's assessment,
and it caused us great concern that a report of this calibre can
make wholesale assumptions on the calibre of staff. I have to
maybe put it on record that the middle management of Maze do a
very, very difficult job, and rather than sort of slapping them
down wholesale it would have been better to have interviewed and
got the other side of the coin, rather than make this assessment,
which, as far as we are concerned, as an Association, is blatantly
untrue.
Mr Donaldson
218. Are you suggesting, therefore, that,
in respect of the evidence gathered by Martin Narey, in drawing
up this Report, there were key personnel perhaps on duty and who
may have had a direct involvement, or an indirect involvement,
in the events surrounding, for example, the murder of prisoner
Wright, that, in your opinion, there were key personnel who were
not interviewed who ought to have been interviewed, and that that
perhaps represents a deficiency in terms of the Narey team having
full access to the kind of information they needed?
(Mr Maguire) Certainly, one of our views of the
Narey Report, whilst we accept a lot of what is said in it, and
parts there, and refer to the middle management, paragraphs 7.5
and 7.6, are very weak, and indeed superficial, and it would cause
us grave concern. It does mention, in the Report, it said, and
I quote from paragraph 7.5: "There are of course individuals
who are able and committed (we were unable to meet one particular
middle-ranking Governor whose performance was universally acclaimed)."
I would like to know why did they not sort of demand to see this
person.
219. Are you saying that the weaknesses
and the superficiality arise out of an inadequacy, in terms of
the personnel which the inquiry team met?
(Mr Maguire) We think it would be our Association's
view that the team that was sent in, whilst capable and all as
they are, it was obvious, I take from the Report, that it was
a very difficult task to cover the Maze Prison within the timescale,
because of the intricacies inherent in Maze and the relationships.
I think, to some extent, that they were overwhelmed by the task.
220. And you are not just being generous
to them, because you have clearly said there are weaknesses and
superficialities in terms of the outcome of the Report? Are you
saying that that weakness and the superficiality arises out of
the nature of the task they were set and the constraints within
which they operated, or are you prepared to say, and go further
than that, as you seemed to be indicating earlier, that there
were key personnel whom the committee, in any circumstances, ought
to have met in order to have gained a full picture of the circumstances
arising from the need for the inquiry in the first place?
(Mr Maguire) What I would say is, and I go back,
and, as an Association, and we represent many of the middle management
who have been sort of dealt with very poorly in this, it would
appear to us that how can a report which is supposed to be a factual
report come up with an impression after a period of six weeks
and not interview key personnel, such as the middle management
of Maze. And indeed some of those people, for example, the Duty
Governor, as has been referred to, only by pure chance managed
to ring up the Narey inquiry team on the penultimate day of the
inquiry and ask could he attend for interview, and in the Narey
Report there is no mention made of his version of events. I find
that incredible.
Chairman
221. I was conscious, before you appeared
before us, and the course of events this afternoon has further
reinforced the impression, that you do serve a dual role, both
as a trade union, in one respect, and as the voice of senior operational
management, in terms of policy and management issues. And if I
may express a sympathetic view, there have been occasions during
the time we have been asking you questions when it has been perhaps
difficult to change gear from one role to the other, but I think
that is in the nature of things. What I would like to ask, perhaps
as a concluding question, because it pulls together the fact that
we have been operating, in a sense, in both modes during the course
of the afternoon, what you think is the most constructive contribution
the Prison Governors Association can make to the future of the
Northern Ireland Prison Service?
(Mr Pepper) I think the best way forward, as far
as the Prison Service is concerned, is for us to work with the
senior management of the Service to take us into the future, and
this becomes the word "partnership". We have offered
this, this has been offered through our national Chairman, and
also, more recently, by our General Secretary. We would hope that
that offer would be taken up. We are quite happy to work with
management but we want to be able to work in a scenario where
we know that our views are being listened to and we want to know
that we can trust the people who are leading us and, in turn,
that they can trust us.
Chairman: Thank you
very much indeed. It has been a thoroughly illuminating afternoon
and we are very grateful to you for having given evidence.
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