Examination of witnesses (Questions 320
- 324)
WEDNESDAY 15 JULY 1998
MR MARTIN
NAREY and DR
PETER BENNETT
Mr McGrady
320. Mr Narey, the conclusion of the conclusions
which you reached in one paragraph here is that the Maze Prison
is the greatest challenge that the Prison Service has met in the
British Isles anyway, that it is a very difficult prison to manage,
and you have made a considerable number of recommendations for
change. In view of the Good Friday or Belfast Agreement and in
view of the proposed early release of prisoners, would you substantially
change the recommendations which you have made? Would you intend
to have the authority to re-visit your report and up-date it because
time has moved very considerably from 2nd April to now?
(Mr Narey) I understand that and clearly the Maze
may be a very different place over the coming months and years,
but I think the overwhelming majority of the recommendations I
made have little or no resource consequences. They were generally
about good practice, about using x-ray technology effectively,
about having proper searches and fabric checks and head counts.
I would, if asked, and I have not been asked, urge they still
be introduced and be introduced very quickly.
321. I do not want to hold you to every
idle word, because man should not be held to every idle word,
but in the very first sentence of your first answer you indicated
that as a consequence of the Belfast Agreement the Maze might
not be there. That is a very dramatically different scenario from
what we are contemplating here today. If that is a strongly held
and valid judgment from you, then we have to reconsider the whole
question of our address to this problem, do we not?
(Mr Narey) Clearly the future of the Maze is well
outside the terms of reference and if the peace process continues
my understanding is that prisoners may be released and the Maze
may have very few prisoners there, and indeed I understand from
suggestions from earlier evidence that it might be closed. My
view would be that while it does have terrorist prisoners in there
who require high security precautions, the security improvements
we recommended should be introduced.
322. Maybe I should be quite blunt about
this: you have been, I think, underlining this concern about the
paramilitary structures and management of the H-blocks within
the prison system of the Maze. If as a result of the Belfast Agreement
a substantial number of those prisoners are released, for whatever
reason, at whatever time, does that change entirely the complexity
of the Maze Prison?
(Mr Narey) If the numbers are so reduced that
it would be possible to close the Maze, then an opportunity could
be given almost to start again. What I have tried to explain this
afternoon is that our recommendations were based on some realities
and some difficulties of turning the clock back in a prison like
the Maze, where all the prisoner groups are very highly organised,
and where staff are fearful of the immediate consequences to them
and the wider consequences in the community of actions which they
might take to, as they sometimes put it, reclaim the prison. I
think if the Maze was allowed to be shut and the smaller number
of prisoners transferred to other prisons, they could be integrated
into a more traditional security regime. But if that is not going
to be for two years, I do think there remains a pretty urgent
need at the Maze to secure some fairly straightforward security
improvements, most of which—I have not been back to check,
it is none of my business any more—can be introduced very
quickly and at very low cost.
Chairman
323. My last question is that the Northern
Ireland Prison Service is unique in having more staff than prisoners.
That is true both of HM Prison Magilligan, which is a medium security
establishment, and also the Youth Offenders Centre at Hydebank.
Do you feel there is a justification for having this particular
ratio?
(Mr Narey) I am not competent to speak on the
two prisons you mention, Mr Brooke. I did make it clear in the
report that I did not believe the very high staffing levels at
the Maze were justified, even taking account of the special circumstances
of the Maze. That is because, unlike most prisons, a lot of the
day-to-day activities, close supervision of visits, patrolling
of the wings, do not occur at the Maze, which means that my conclusion
was that there were very large pockets of staff with not very
much to do.
324. That sounds to me as though it was
both a conclusive and a concluding answer. Thank you very much
indeed. We are much in your debt. Thank you for having appeared
before us and taken all the questions you were asked in your stride.
(Mr Narey) Thank you very much, Mr Brooke.
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