Examination of witnesses (Questions 420 - 439)
WEDNESDAY 29 JULY 1998
THE RT
HON DR
MARJORIE MOWLAM,
MP, MR
ADAM INGRAM,
MP and MR
ALAN SHANNON
420. Thank you. Northern Ireland Prison
Service's costs, despite recent improvements, still compare very
unfavourably with those in other GB Prison Services, with a total
cost per prisoner three times that in England and Wales. Are the
Secretary of State and the Minister satisfied that this level
of expenditure is justified and are steps being taken to further
reduce those costs?
(Mr Ingram) I think we have got to accept that
the cost per prisoner is exceptionally high, three times what
it is within the rest of GB. That is an undeniable fact. Again
we have got to look at why that occurs. We have a small prison
population. Let me put it the other way: we have a larger prison
population per capita for the size of country and we have additional
costs coming in as a consequence of the nature of those prisoners.
Also because of the fact that it is a small overall Prison Service
having to cover all of the major areas which are covered within
the rest of GB, it then has to have in many ways a larger management
structure as a consequence of that. It has to mirror all the legislative
changes that are likely to take place, it has to provide support
for all the visitor programmes that are likely to occur. All these
things add to the cost of it. The prison officers themselves are
paid in the region of about £5,000 more than they are paid
elsewhere in the United Kingdom. That in itself adds to the cost
of the prisoner. When the Crumlin Road prison was closed in Belfast
the cost per prisoner actually went up not down even though a
prison had closed because your overhead costs essentially remain
the same. Having said that, these are things which the Prison
Service Review is beginning to tackle—looking at the whole
question of a more effective management structure and looking
at a pay evaluation structure to try and ensure that there is
a proper approach to the way in which prison officers are paid
and that those who are in direct interface with prisoners are
the ones who receive greater remuneration than those who are distant
from the prisoners. The question of civilianisation. The question
of bringing auxiliaries in to take the place of prison officers.
All of these are examples of the ways the management has been
trying to drive down the cost per prisoner place. If you look
at the evidence which was given to you from the Department, as
I am sure you have, you will see that where before there was a
trend very rapidly upwards in terms of cost per prisoner place
in fact the trend is now down. We hope to drive that down on a
much sharper basis. That is going to prove difficult as we move
into a different type of environment with all the changes that
could flow from the Good Friday Agreement with accelerated prisoner
release, if that takes place, because a period of volatility and
change then occurs. You cannot bring about that process of change
without major cost implications. I think you were given in previous
evidence the fact that it cost £1 million for 12 posts (although
in reality it was 14 posts) so the cost of redundancy itself for
removal of posts is exceptionally high and all these things add
to the cost per prisoner place. We have a unique set of circumstance.
We are attending to it and we hope to bring costs down in a much
more rapid way.
Mr Salter
421. Good afternoon. As you said earlier,
there have been 29 deaths in 30 years of troubles and the membership
of the POA has taken more than its fair share of intimidation
and suffering. That said, it is clear to me in the evidence that
we have received so far, not just from the POA itself, that there
is a breakdown in trust and confidence in the senior management
of the Prison Service. It is also evident that morale is extremely
low. It is becoming evident that there is an absence of a clear
personnel strategy. Do you share these conclusions? If so, what
do you propose to do about it?
(Marjorie Mowlam) If Adam Ingram could address
the personnel strategy point. I think there is no doubt that the
POA have taken the brunt. If you talk to the families of those
that have lost their lives as a result there is no doubt that
there is a great deal of frustration and anger and bitterness
there which is common to victims whatever the cause in the sense
of the losses they have received. I think that the difficulties
in the Maze are such that some elements of the POA, I have to
say when I am in Northern Ireland, are very speedy to get out
in the media and blame somebody else, when I am sure that the
reality is, as is always the case in these situations, that there
are problems and blame to be apportioned across the board. When
you have had, for example, a difficulty in the prison you get
a lot of people off sick the next day because of fear and who
can blame them? Faced with that, you then say it is the management's
problem. If you have not got the bodies on the ground to function,
it then becomes problematic and difficult but easy to blame somebody
else. I think there are problems at many levels and I think that
rather than have a culture of blame which seems to be the overriding
one—from all sections—that it would be much better
to get a situation of greater co-operation, better working relationships
in a very difficult situation. I am not saying that the POA do
not have a strong case, they clearly do, but I think too much
criticism has been made of top management in a situation where
there is very little they can do in response. Sometimes there
are no easy answers to the problems that are being faced. I know
the prison authorities have made every effort to make sure that
families and people that are off with psychological and physical
difficulties are treated well, but it is not an easy situation
to manage. I think to blame one other person or one other group
is not always the best answer.
(Mr Ingram) That really in a sense sums it up.
I do not think there is much more to say other than to repeat
some of the points I have said about the Prison Service Review.
That is the beginning of an attempt to tackle some of these problems.
That whole review has put in place a mechanism which will take
about two years to come into effect and it is about trying to
deal with a proper approach in terms of management structures
so that there is a clear understanding of what managers on the
blocks and prisoners should be doing and what the role of prison
officers should be in the evaluation exercise, as I said earlier,
of trying to make sure that those that interface with the prisoners
are the ones that are best remunerated because clearly they carry
a bigger part of the load in many ways. The whole question of
training is important in all of this, trying to encourage a better
uptake of training at all levels within the Prison Service. That
has also been tackled. It is all of those factors contained within
the Prison Service Review which I understand you have a copy of
which I think is the beginning of an attempt to address some of
that. The Secretary of State is clearly right about the backcloth
of what has been happening in the Northern Ireland Prison Service
primarily in the Maze but because the flow of prison officers
between the individual prisons is such they are all affected by
events and a period of change and a process of change with all
the stresses that come into this clearly do affect the delivery
of the service and then the morale of those who are working within
that service. It is for that reason that I have met with the POA
on at least two occasions and the Prison Governors again on two
occasions and in many of the discussions that have taken place
it has really been the operational matters that have been raised.
It is not the role of the Minister to involve himself in that
direct type of contact. I hope what we have done as an administration
is to show that we are conscious of this and we want to hear what
the views are to ensure that the determining of the policy setting
objectives take account of that. I am satisfied that the management
has taken account of that and has looked at ways to address it
in the ways I have set out.
422. I think the culture of blame is a feature
of life in Northern Ireland, it is not just confined to the Prison
Service. If we were to rank trade unions from neanderthal to progressive,
the POA would certainly be at one end of that spectrum. That said,
on our visits to prisons in Northern Ireland it was clear that
there appears to be on the ground a lot of worry, a lot of concern,
about what is likely to happen in the context of the Belfast Agreement
and in the context of downsizing. What worries the hell out of
me is without any evidence of confidence in the personnel strategy
and the personnel function in the service we are actually going
to be starting from a very low base in putting through a whole
programme of change. I wonder whether you are satisfied that sufficiently
proactive lines of communication are open at all levels of the
service so that people have some idea of what they are likely
to be doing and what their futures are?
(Marjorie Mowlam) In relation to proactive lines
of communication I have no doubt that before the Good Friday Agreement
there were proactive lines of communication by the management
and I think it takes two not to communicate. Therefore, I think
there have been difficulties developing over the years because
it is a difficult environment to work in. We under-estimate the
problems that the management face or the POA face in their day
to day work. When you are faced with those backdrops of risking
your life when you go to work you understand why they do not turn
up. You can understand equally why their not turning up makes
the management job harder. It is not an environment conducive
to good communication. The present administration post the fundamental
review are trying hard to get training into place. If you look
at the objectives for training of last year, the goal was five
days and they have got three for every prison officer. That is
not ideal, they have not met their objective, but they are moving
further towards it. I think that is a plus. Can I say in response
to your point about the worry and concern of the POA, I accept
that completely. It is totally understandable. The difficulty
with the Good Friday Agreement for everybody is it means change
and what change does is create fear and fear creates distrust
and then it is very difficult to function. That is one of the
reasons why in answer to Mr Robinson's question the timescale
we are pushing on presents difficulties as well as pluses but
what would that have been if it had taken us two years to get
to a point where we opened up negotiations with the POA? It is
a question of timing, it is difficult, there is no easy way to
handle change. Can I assure you and assure the Committee, with
the Prime Minister's words as a backdrop, the response to the
POA's difficulties I am sure can be accommodated in sensible negotiations
between the management and the POA. The POA are nervous because
of the situation but from what you have said many of them, and
many that I have spoken to, if the package was right would welcome
the chance after many years waiting for their pensions to find
an alternative way forward for themselves and their families.
That is part of the plus and the upside of finding an alternative
to the violence of the past. There is no doubt that in the next
year, two years, three years, five years, I do not know how long
it is going to take, that will be up to some of the Members who
are around this table who will be in the Assembly as to how fast
accommodation and trust and respect is built between the communities,
no-one can legislate for that, that takes time, all I can say
is I hope very soon once the management are talking that some
of the worst fears are allayed because it is only by communicating
that that will happen. As I say, it is only 24 hours since the
Sentences Bill was passed so it would be unrealistic to expect
that those negotiations had already started up. I hope by talking
and negotiating some of those fears can be allayed.
Mr Hunter
423. Secretary of State, I want to raise
with you with you the question of accountability within Northern
Ireland prisons and the Young Offenders Centres. It seems to me
that there are three distinct structures to look at. First, the
one I have just mentioned to Mr Salter, the question of the Boards
of Visitors. Can I simply ask—and I understand you have
ministerial responsibility for the composition of those Boards—are
you satisfied with the procedures whereby people are appointed
or invited to them and are you satisfied that the Boards of Visitors
are working sufficiently effectively?
(Mr Ingram) The short answer to that is yes. If
there are any doubts about this I am hosting a dinner within the
next few weeks with the Boards of Visitors and clearly they will
raise those issues with me. I recently met the executive members
of the overall Boards of Visitors. I do not recollect any of those
specific areas being raised but that was a first meeting; at the
second meeting I have with them they may want to raise issues
they did not feel comfortable raising on the first occasion. It
has not raised itself as a particular issue. It is not there,
or I do not think it is.
424. Would it be possible after the Minister
has had this next meeting with those Boards, if anything relevant
crops up for our inquiry that we could be informed?
(Mr Ingram) If I feel there is a need to supplement
that answer I certainly would communicate that to the Committee.
Chairman: Thank you
very much indeed.
Mr Hunter
425. The second area I want to raise relates
to the Chief Inspector of Prisons. The Committee understands that
the Chief Inspector of Prisons operates in the Province by invitation
only. First, is that factually correct and can the Secretary of
State or the Minister confirm that? If this is the case does the
Government regard it as a desirable state of affairs?
(Marjorie Mowlam) Yes is the answer. He is there
by invitation. I do not consider it desirable or undesirable.
If he wants to come more often he is most welcome. It suggests
a degree of formality that I think is overplaying the situation.
He comes on a regular basis but he has other work to do. If there
is a suggestion in the question that he wants to come more often
then let him tell us. We have never had any indication that the
present situation is not working.
426. I think the line of reasoning or the
school of thought we have had presented to us is that he operates
really at the beck and command of Government rather than with
a greater degree of independence. I think that is the thought
that has been put to us.
(Marjorie Mowlam) We both look absolutely amazed.
That does not affect his independence in any way at all. He can
come every week but if he came every week it would make it difficult
for the Prisons Service to function because they would be constantly
under review. I presume once a year is a happy medium. We await
your report. If for some reason you feel there is the need for
more constancy then we would have no difficulty with that. We
are not out to block the independent Chief Inspector of Prisons
in any way at all.
(Mr Ingram) In fact, we would welcome it if it
is a healthy examination that has got to take place, it brings
experience to that. This goes back to Mr Beggs' question about
the close nature of it. That type of scrutiny is to be welcomed
in the running of the regime.
(Marjorie Mowlam) As the Minister said, in terms
of the changes we might have to make, if we accept Mr Robinson's
hypothesis of what will happen in the future, we would welcome
the views of the many people with experience in this area to make
sure we work effectively and efficiently in the future.
427. At the moment Northern Ireland is the
only part of the United Kingdom where there is not a Prisons Ombudsman
at work. Does the Government see possible changes in the future
as changing this also? Would you see a role for a Prisons Ombudsman?
(Mr Ingram) I think the judicial review perhaps,
a major conclusion coming out of that although we could not predict
with any certainty in terms of what is going to happen with that
body, is meeting to look at this. Clearly your own observations
may lead us in that particular direction but I am talking about
the review of the justice system. In terms of the judicial review
that clearly gives the opportunity to review any wrong doings
or perceived wrong doings within the administration and prisoners
within Northern Ireland prisons are very quick to raise the judicial
review process.
Mr Browne
428. First of all, may I apologise for the
fact that I missed the beginning of this evidence session. I have
a number of general questions but they are general questions about
specific categories of prisoners whose circumstances have interested
us during the course of this process. The first category of prisoners
is sexual offenders. Uniquely in my experience of UK prisons sex
offenders are not segregated in Northern Ireland. We would like
to know if you are satisfied that that method of treating sex
offenders is justified, and I mean justified both in terms of
treatment of prisoners and justified in terms of the long-term
protection of the public?
(Marjorie Mowlam) My personal view is that that
is a plus. These people are going to have to go out and live eventually
with other people. If there was a threat or problems they would
be segregated as we have responded to other difficulties where
there have been internal difficulties between prisoners. I have
read nothing to suggest there is a difficulty. There seems to
be a degree of being able to survive in the same units. Therefore
in broad terms it does them better than to be isolated. That is
my personal view. I do not know what the official view is.
(Mr Ingram) That is the official view as well.
You have got to take into account the smallness of the population.
It is a very small population of particular categories. I do not
know what other categories of prisoners you are going to refer
to. There are small numbers of female offenders as well. If it
is a question of trying to deal with special units, therefore
you have got to accept that there are other ways in which that
can be dealt with, whether it is an estate management problem
or whatever else. So clearly the population size of these special
categories is something that has to be taken into account. In
terms of sex offenders because of the process of seeking reintegration
back into community, it seems to be better if they are within
a normal environment within the prison and that may assist that.
That is the way in which it has been looked at up to now in Northern
Ireland.
429. It may be that the Northern Ireland
Prison Service should share the secrets of their ability to integrate
sex offenders with the rest of the UK prison system.
(Mr Ingram) There may not be a secret there. It
may just be that some of the answers I have given may lead you
to that. I do not think there is a secret or some magic formula.
The nature of the population size dictates certain approaches
but also it has been deemed that that is the best way of dealing
with it. There is no perfect way of dealing with this problem,
I would suggest, and it is a case of looking at the best way of
dealing with it given the different range of parameters which
apply in Northern Ireland that are unique in this case because
of population size.
Mr McWalter: There
are some UK prisons outside Northern Ireland that do not segregate,
for example Gartree. It is not true that all United Kingdom prisons
apart from Northern Ireland segregate.
Mr Browne
430. The point I was making is the other
two systems have segregation units but, in any event, let us move
on. One of the other categories that has come to our attention
is an even smaller category than sex offenders—it is a one-off.
There is in Maghaberry prison a female child being accommodated,
it would appear because of the lack of any other facility. Is
there any plan to improve that situation?
(Mr Ingram) Again it is one prisoner and again
you have examined this in terms of the family circumstances. A
very unique set of circumstances apply to this particular prisoner
which clearly we cannot go into in detail because of the difficulty
of dealing with her within the existing regime which would be
there for such young female persons and the number of assaults
that particular individual has carried out on prison staff which
means she is difficult to handle. We have had to look at ways
in which that is then dealt with. That does not mean to say that
does not constitute a problem, it clearly does, but again population
size would dictate that if you have a large number then perhaps
special units and special arrangements can apply in this set of
circumstances but with a one-off and the small prison estate we
do have then the way in which it has been dealt with is a reasonable
way given all those factors.
(Marjorie Mowlam) If I could just add, Mr Browne,
there are particular difficulties with this young person. If it
would help the Committee we can certainly let you or the chair
or the Committee know. I think it would be unfair to put them
in the public domain. I can assure you, as the Minister said,
it is not a situation that is desirable but it is not as bizarre
and odd as you would first think looking at case. I am quite happy
to do that if there is a procedure for me to do that.
Chairman: I think
the Committee would be grateful.
Mr Browne
431. I think we would be grateful and it
would be helpful to deal with that in that fashion rather than
in public evidence. Is it your understanding that this child who
is a one-off presently is a one-off in terms of the history of
the system or have there been other female children accommodated
within the Prison Service because of a lack of suitable units
for their accommodation?
(Mr Ingram) My understanding is in recent times
it is a one-off. I am not sure how far back your question would
go. Again we could provide you with information on the detail.
I do not have immediate information on that as to it being a recurring
problem. The specific circumstances that apply to this young female
prisoner are very tragic and it is probably better we do not discuss
those in detail. We can provide a detailed background to all this
by way of writing to the Committee.
432. On the same theme in the sense it is
the same part of Maghaberry prison there is a unit in Maghaberry
that houses female prisoners but it is within the perimeter, shall
we say, of a larger prison that is predominantly male prisoners.
Are you satisfied that is an appropriate arrangement for accommodating
female prisoners?
(Mr Ingram) Satisfied in the sense that it is
something which we have inherited. Let me say because of the review
of the prison estate it is something that can be looked at. If
we go down the route of providing specific special units for small
populations—I am sorry to belabour this point—then
there are major cost implications and resource implications to
all that because it becomes very human resource dependent with
a significantly large number of prison officers for a small population.
You do not know what the flow is going to be so you have got to
staff up to your perceived maximum although it may never meet
that or fall far short of it. That certainly causes major resource
implications. Then it is a question of building such a unit. I
can think of major capital implications in that. My feel for this
would be the provisions and the way in which this has been dealt
with is dealing with it in a sensible and reasonable way. I do
not see a demand that would force us down the other route of taking
on board all of those resource implications with capital and human
resource costs.
433. This is a larger prison population,
the remand prisoners. We have heard evidence from a number of
sources that it would be more appropriate, or at least there has
been a suggestion that there should be within the prison estate
in Northern Ireland specifically a remand prison as opposed to
accommodating remand prisoners in this mixed estate on the Maghaberry
site. I suspect your answer to that might be that in the process
of the review this will be one of the things you will be looking
at.
(Mr Ingram) I do not want to hide behind the review
but I think what I am trying to say, and this is why I want this
major overview seminar later in the year, is we will take into
account all the changes that have taken place and the quality
of advice that will be coming forward. In terms of remand processes,
those of you who visited Hydebank YOC will be aware that is an
integrated approach there, there are remand young offenders there
as well as sentenced young offenders and there is a flow through
if somebody is then subsequently found guilty of their offence
and put into the normal prison. It does not seem to constitute
a major problem there for the young offenders and, in fact, it
has been highly complimented. If I recollect correctly the Inspector
of Prisons, when he gave evidence to you, complimented that particular
young offenders' institute while at the same time making a comment
about the nature of separate remand processes elsewhere after
commenting adversely on the closure of the Crumlin Road Prison
in Belfast. There seems a slight contradiction in that approach
but I would want to take into account the quality of the advice
that is coming forward in looking at that. It is not hiding behind
the review but I think it is something we have to take into account,
the types of views that have been expressed. But, then again,
you are into the question of if you set up a separate unit there
are major capital implications in it and also resource implications
in it as well and these have to be taken into account.
(Marjorie Mowlam) Can I just add that the Crumlin
Road, as you are probably aware, was a remand prison but because
of the difficulties that were faced in there where they took the
tops of the beds off and went through the wall we had to close
it because the cost of redoing it would have been too much, £46
million to refurbish that. That is the kind of judgment we have
to make, as the Minister was saying, in terms of cost implications.
It is a desirable situation obviously to keep them separate, I
think there is a case for that, and I hope in the changes that
are taking place at Maghaberry we can facilitate that. I am sure
you are aware that some of the remand prisoners ask to go to the
Maze to be with their units, or whatever you want to call them,
to be in the same location. Again, there are complexities underneath
which may not come immediately to light.
Mr Browne: I have
no other questions at this time, thank you.
Mr Hesford
434. Good afternoon. You may well be aware
from the notes of evidence of the lines of enquiry that I have
been pursuing that have been on the question of leadership and
leadership particularly post the Belfast Agreement. Mr Shannon,
no doubt, personally remembers my questioning to him and Mr Mogg
on the first occasion. In terms of senior management and, Secretary
of State, if I may say, I will preface my question with this backdrop:
nothing I have been asking should be taken to not understand the
political implications of the questions, it is meant to be helpful
to the process, to take the process forward into what I have been
characterising the new reality post the Belfast Agreement, if
as we all hope that reality comes about in the Prison Service
set-up.
(Marjorie Mowlam) Yes.
435. In terms of senior management of the
Northern Ireland Prison Service what are the areas which you believe
need review and change post the Belfast Agreement? I have characterised
leadership, if I can give you four areas I would ask you to comment
on. One is morale within the Prison Service, the staff. Two is
the management of change from what was to what we hope will be.
Three is allied to two, a more proactive and creative regime in
the Prison Service moving away from a turnkey mentality. Four
is a more open and flexible management style which assists communication
with the workforce.
(Mr Ingram) If I could perhaps deal with this.
I take your opening comments about the nature and the reasons
for your questions, trying to be helpful rather than personalised.
Clearly any criticism of individual civil servants is an unfortunate
set of circumstances because they are not in a position where
they are able to answer back. Before I answer the specific points
you raised, if I can play back some of the things I said earlier
about how important the role of the Chief Executive is and the
other senior policy advisers who will be carrying that function
out and dealing with the very sensitive nature of many of the
decisions they have to come to and the impact those decisions
may have on the wider areas of interest in Northern Ireland. On
the question of morale, and I think we have touched upon that,
the Prison Service Review was the beginning of looking at this
but clearly it then touched upon the whole management of change
difficulty as well because a process of change will take place
if the Good Friday Agreement in terms of accelerated release does
become a reality. There are implications in all of that. These
are not easy things to resolve. Where you have low morale, for
whatever reason, and then along comes a process of change that
creates difficulties that have to be addressed. I think the management
is seeking to address that, I genuinely think that. They have
been looking at it in a whole range of ways: in terms of the training
programmes; in terms of points I made earlier about who should
be the best paid prison officer; the question of getting proper
structures within the prison management structure so there are
clear management functions being performed. These things have
already begun and, as a process now in place, will continue to
be implemented. Hopefully at the end of that process we will be
into a better environment with a clearer understanding of all
of this. I do not think it is going to be without some pain because
clearly there will be pain because of the very process of change
which is taking place. We are trying to tackle it in a very imaginative
and constructive way. In terms of trying to move away from the
turnkey culture, ie prison guards as opposed to prison officers,
I have a particular interest in this and it has been stimulated
by those who have been looking at the Northern Ireland Prison
Service, the whole question of the corrective prison regime, to
look at ways in which you can use the prison officers as a productive
interface with the prisoners that will flow through in the way
in which prisoners are dealt with as they go out on temporary
release and then permanent release into the wider community to
stop reoffending or whatever else. Many of those schemes have
already been looked at within the Northern Ireland Prison Service
and I hope we can do more there. That is another process of change
because there are a whole lot of agencies engaged in all of that.
That may be something we can stimulate ourselves and it may be
something we will want to look at in terms of the review of the
justice system because there may be an impact on all of that.
That is something we are currently looking at in policy terms.
So far as open and flexible management is concerned, we all wish
for that and that is down to the quality of the training that
management receives and again that is part of the Prison Service
Review to ensure that you have clearly declared lines of management
responsibility and well trained managers in place to carry that
out. Now, having said that, we have a particular difficulty because
of the fact that we do not have a Governor at the Maze and it
is proving very difficult to obtain the right type of person for
that post. We are in the very unusual set of circumstances where
a senior official, the Director of Operations, is currently working
as the de facto Governor of the Maze. That is not a circumstance
we would have liked to have seen happen in the first place and
we would not want to see it continuing much longer into the future.
We have to have the right person with the right qualities to take
on the job of Governor of the Maze which means we can then deal
with some of the particular elements of the areas of problems
which manifest themselves because of that.
(Marjorie Mowlam) Can I just add, I think leadership
is crucial and the difficulty is that we could not find somebody
suitable in the first trawl for Governor. We are looking at that
again. But I think that is indicative of the difficulties of the
job.
436. Secretary of State, Mr Ingram, you
have anticipated my follow-up question. From the various witnesses
I have explored the qualities needed for, say, the Chief Executive
and Operations Director. It has been suggested on the one hand
that somebody with an inside knowledge of the Northern Ireland
Prison Service would assist in this process, but there is a difficulty
in the sense that it is a small pool and by reason of the difficulty
of being unable to find a Governor for the Maze you may not be
able to find within the Northern Ireland Prison Service somebody
suitable as Chief Executive of the service. On the other hand,
it has been suggested on the other side of the coin that somebody
from outside needs to come in with a wider view to assist the
process. A C-stream to that has been that that person should not
be a career civil servant wherever they come from, and that a
lack of understanding or perceived lack of understanding from
troops below by the top through being a career civil servant.
Whether that perception is fair and accurate, it is indeed a perception.
So the Committee would welcome your thoughts on the qualities
of the Chief Executive.
(Mr Ingram) I am placed in a slight difficulty
because we were in the process over the last two days of interviewing
for that particular post.
437. You are ideally placed!
(Mr Ingram) I am awaiting the recommendation of
the interviewing board as to who should get that job and that
has not yet been placed in front of us but it will be within a
very short period of time. To go back to my earlier answers, in
a sense I have explained the role of the Chief Executive, soon
to become the Director-General which is the new title we have
alighted on. That person has to have a range of sophisticated
knowledge about political processes, about the society in which
he or she is serving, as well as having a good knowledge of management
approaches and also I would suggest a good knowledge of what makes
prisons tick and so on. Remember, however, that below that Director-General
there are specialist posts anyway. There is a Director of Operations,
a Director of Finance, a Director of Personnel and a Director
of Policy Development and those are people who can bring different
attributes. My feel for this would be you do not necessarily have
to have in all of those areas someone who has direct knowledge
of running prisons because they bring different expertise to the
table. I think certainly from my experience of the way in which
I have been served as a Minister—and Mr Shannon is here
and I will pay him a compliment—the service he has provided
has been of a very high standard in advisory terms and in understanding
the sensitivity of any operational decisions that have to be taken
and in delivering that. Clearly that is my experience of the role
of the Chief Executive, soon to be the Director-General, and I
would hope that that type of knowledge and experience could continue
to be brought forward. Whether that is a senior civil servant
or someone from outside we will need to wait and see who we appoint.
(Marjorie Mowlam) I echo in relation to Martin
Mogg, whom I knew in Opposition better than I did in Government,
there is a sensitivity that is needed in managing the Maze which
does not necessarily sit easy with some of the other characteristics
you have outlined, Mr Hesford. It is very difficult to find somebody.
We are clearly of the view having read other reports that the
top management has been unfairly and excessively slated. As I
said earlier, I think everybody, politicians of all parties, top
management, middle management, POA, ought to carry some blame
for how things have developed. However, what we do have is the
basis of the building blocks in the fundamental review to actually
be quite radical in some of the structural changes which I hope
will deal not just with the greater efficiency in the management
but pick up on some of Mr Browne's points in providing a better
response to the prisoners.
438. Chair, could welcome Mr Ingram's seminar
on this.
(Mr Ingram) You are not necessarily invited to
it!
439. It may have been foot in mouth but
it was not foot in door! I welcome the seminar. Would it be possible
to furnish the Committee with some information about that?
(Mr Ingram) The answer to that is yes. What I
have said is that I want to wait until the publication of your
report anyway because I think recommendations coming from this
Committee will be very helpful.
|
