Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20
- 39)
MONDAY 15 DECEMBER 1997
SIR JOHN
KERR, KCMG, MR
PETER WESTMACOTT,
LVO, MR JOHN
KERBY, and MR
LEE BEAUMONT
MR JAMIE
MORTIMER
20. What is the latest invention from yourselves
and Gibraltar?
(Sir John Kerr) I would say it rather depends
on the outcome of...... I am sorry?
21. I am obviously not going to get an answer,
Chairman. I will return to it later.
(Sir John Kerr) I am trying to give you a completely
honest answer. There is at present a dispute between us and the
Commission as to whether another raft of Directives, the Article
100a Directives, should be applied in Gibraltar. These are Single
Market Directives, some of which, in our view, have no application
whatsoever in Gibraltar. Were the Commission to succeed in persuading
us that they are correct, or were the Court to find that they
were correct, another 350 Directives would have to be applied
in Gibraltar, and any deadline I tried to set for you today would
be meaningless.
Chairman: Mr Hope, do you want to
come back on that later?
Mr Hope
22. I think I might. Can we move dramatically
across the globe back to Miami, on page 23, looking at the issues
around law and order. It talks about establishing a Regional Crime
Intelligence System to replace the Regional Drugs Intelligence
Unit in BVI. Is the new organisation established? Is it working?
Have we achieved a success there?
(Sir John Kerr) Yes. This is the unit I visited
in Miami where the British policeman and British customs official
working in our Consulate in Miami, working alongside the FBI with
secure communications equipment, which we have paid for and have
supplied to the Dependent Territories, can exchange information
on suspects, American information, because they are plugged into
the FBI and the American Coastguard and the American Inter-Agency
Task Force. It works in both directions. Some information is coming
out of the Dependent Territories, some information is going into
the Dependent Territories and, perhaps best of all, it works between
individual Dependent Territories. It is working very well.
23. Can I move then to transport on page
37. I am sorry to be moving us about at this pace but we do not
get a great deal of time. From paragraph 4.32 it is clear that
this Government bears a huge amount of risk in the Dependent Territories
where they cannot bear their own risks, and we have substantial
liabilities. How far are we exposed?
(Sir John Kerr) The Bermuda government have had
comprehensive cover; the Gibraltar government have cover; the
Falklands government, it does not really arise but there is cover.
It is not feasible for St Helena or Pitcairn. I think we are talking
about a problem that is basically a Caribbean problem, and I wonder
if you were planning to come back to it, Mr Chairman, later in
the afternoon.
24. Can I cover one more area then, Chairman.
The findings of the recent Select Committee on Montserrat suggested
that there are too many players in the existing machinery, lack
of co-ordination and too many decision-makers being one of the
problems experienced there. In terms of the report's findings
on handling matters as a result of this, would you agree with
that and is the Foreign Office now working to remove those layers
of decision-makers and players in the machinery to ensure that
in future if disasters occur we will not be in the same difficulties
as we have been in?
(Sir John Kerr) This is an area of policy. Ministers
will be meeting to consider their Dependent Territories Review,
which is at present in hand. Of course, in 1992 as a result of
the excellent NAO report and the report from the Public Accounts
Committee we greatly strengthened the extra tier that we had in
Bridgetown, both the Dependent Territories Regional Secretariat
and the Development Division there in Bridgetown. So we have partly
added a tier there. I think it is possible that in the Dependent
Territories Review now going on people in both ministries, in
the Department for International Development as well as in the
Foreign Office, will wonder whether there is some simplification
of the structure which would be possible, but I am afraid I do
not feel I can really prejudge that.
Jane Griffiths
25. Can we look at capital aids, looking
at page 18 of the report. The prisons project cost £13 million,
I believe, and there does not seem to have been particularly good
assessment of projects and plans, given that the locals have differing
priorities for public services. Sorry, I am not phrasing this
question very well. Why have there been apparent failures in the
assessment of project plans and of the contractors' ability to
deliver those promptly and effectively, as seems to be illustrated
by the prisons project?
(Sir John Kerr) I do not want to speak for the
Department for International Development. John Kerby may want
to speak for himself. I think actually the procedures are rather
good, as far as I can see them. I have been learning them over
this weekend. Decisions are taken on the basis of, where they
exist, country policy plans, and certainly our own internal country
strategy papers, which are in turn linked to the Bridgetown exercise,
the annual plan produced by the Development Division there, and
the Regional Secretariat next door. We think that where a project
goes wrong it does not go wrong for lack of prior planning. I
think that in the exercise in capital aid, which, of course, is
now pretty limited here-it does not go on in the richer of these
countries-all DfID's normal project appraisal techniques would
apply. I cannot speak for the particular prisons project. I do
not know whether you would like Mr Kerby to speak to it or whether
it was simply an example of a system which I agree clearly is
not perfect.
26. I was using the prisons project as an
example. I was not particularly asking you for detail about it,
but the report does say in paragraph 2.12 that no attempt was
made to assess the likelihood of the Territories being able to
absorb the costs. I was not suggesting that there was a lack of
planning. I was suggesting that there was something missing from
the planning if it was not known at the start whether the Territories
could absorb those costs or not?
(Sir John Kerr) May I ask Mr Kerby if he wants
to enlighten us?
(Mr Kerby) Mr Chairman, I do not know that there
is a great deal to add to the report itself. It seems to me to
very fairly state the situation. Clearly the prisons project is
a rather unusual case. It is not the case, in my experience in
30 years in this line of business, that we have ever contemplated
before a project comprising the building of four prisons. Clearly
there are problems, particularly in small communities like this,
such as the NAO had reported in 2.7 and 2.8. People see these
rather state-of-the-art prisons being completed and wonder whether
the resources could not have been used elsewhere. They were, on
the other hand, designed to the specifications of Judge Tumim,
who visited and who was instrumental, I think, in leading to the
production of this project. That was a decision that ministers
took that there must be proper prisons in these Territories. There
were then some of the problems which arise in almost any capital
aid programme such as are described in the report, particularly
exacerbated by the problems of operating in small islands. The
need for the running costs to maintain the prisons was recognised
and this is why in 2.12 it is recorded that the United Kingdom
minister asked the Chief Ministers to ensure that adequate budgetary
provision would be made for running them. So the problem was at
that stage clearly seen and action was taken at the best possible
time to ensure that the necessary funds were available, but clearly
it was a substantial addition to their budget.
27. On projects in general, not specifically
prison projects, according to paragraph 2.14 some of them have
been completed up to three years late, and in four cases there
were no completion dates shown. How did that come about?
(Mr Kerby) I have to tell you I cannot answer
that in detail. I think if you would like project-by-project details
we will have to write to you with those.
Chairman: We will have a note. [1]
Jane Griffiths
28. In part on that, there was a 37 per
cent. increase in costs for the Princess Alexandra Hospital in
Anguilla, which seems rather a massive escalation to me. Was that
anticipated? How was it dealt with?
(Mr Kerby) Clearly it was not anticipated. It
is reported here what the budget was at the start of the project
and what it eventually rose to. Clearly one can within the aid
programme as a whole encompass an increase such as that. It is
clearly not the way one would hope to design a project.
29. If I can move on to disaster planning,
it has been touched on earlier but I wondered, is it true that
not all the Dependent Territories have fully developed disaster
plans yet?
(Sir John Kerr) No, I think it is no longer true.
I was describing to your colleague a moment ago the steps that
have been taken in each of the TCI, BVI, Caymans, Anguilla and
Bermuda; plus the regional structures, with CDERA, the emergency
response agency; with model legislation which has been drafted,
financed by DfID; and with attempts to learn from each other and
learn from experience. I think that awareness of the need for
disaster preparedness has grown thanks to the disaster in Montserrat.
It is hard to exaggerate the scale of that drama for Montserrat,
a population down from 11,000 to 4,000 and dropping. I do not
think any particular disaster preparedness plan would have enabled
us cope much better with that than we have, but I think it has
served to encourager les autres.
30. That is fair enough but it is, after
all, well-known that most of the Caribbean is prone to natural
disasters of one kind or another, and whilst a volcano can erupt
at any time and the damage can be greater or lesser, it does seem
rather strange that there was not up to the early to mid 1990s
at any rate full disaster planning when it was known that disasters
might well occur. So whilst the scale of the planning might not
have been able to make it possible to cope with the Montserrat
volcano, the lack of disaster planning at all seems rather odd.
(Sir John Kerr) I am sorry, I do not accept that
there was a lack of disaster planning at all. I agree that the
picture is imperfect but I had been trying to explain that there
has been a serious attempt to improve disaster preparedness and
I do think that it was better by the early 1990s than it had been
by, say, the early 1960s or early 1970s. I think that people are
aware of these risks and are working on them. This kind of report
is, however, helpful to lend encouragement.
31. If I can move on briefly, on the law
and order question, specifically drug trafficking, looking at
the bottom of page 23, it is indicated that £2.2 million
was provided for law enforcement mainly and that included the
provision of drugs surveillance aircraft for the British Virgin
Islands and the Turks and Caicos Islands. How much of that £2.2
million was spent on those aircraft? I may have missed it in the
report but I cannot find the exact breakdown.
(Sir John Kerr) I am sorry, I do not know the
answer to that. The two aircraft are financed from different pockets.
One of them is financed from FCO good governance funds, the other
is financed from military technical assistance funds. One has
RAF loan personnel, one has RN personnel. I do not know how much
it cost in 1994-95. It is a small component now in expenditure
in 1997-98 of over £5 million directly by the British taxpayer
in the five ways I described earlier. Moreover, it is a way that
is now working. I am assured that these planes are now flying
and have been responsible for a number of seizures.
32. Are they flying as much as they should
be, because it seems they did not have night-flying capability,
or only limited night-flying capability, and it would seem to
me that most drugs deliveries happen probably at night?
(Sir John Kerr) I am sure that is right, though
I am not an expert. They now have that night- vision equipment.
33. So this report is not up-to-date then?
(Sir John Kerr) This report is not up-to-date
for the very good reason that it was completed in the spring and
we have moved on. Two recent seizures in the British Virgin Islands,
both relatively small but cumulatively producing cocaine worth
$11 million, were the direct result of leads established by the
BVI-based plane and I am sure that if I asked the Turks and Caicos
they would produce a number in relation to the recent activities
of the TCI plane. I am assured that they work. I did mention earlier
that there is the problem that we do not, under our aid rules,
provide for running costs. So I am sure that if the plane needs
spares and money is not available for its spares, then there will
be delays. At present, apparently, there is no such delay.
34. But their flying times have been restricted
because of an inability to pay for enough fuel because fuel costs
were not allowed for in the original provision of the aircraft
funds, is that right?
(Sir John Kerr) No. We could not pay fuel costs.
We have no pocket from which we could pay fuel costs. The general
point I would make is that I think the two governments in question,
the BVI government and the TCI government, are now well aware
both of the general need for action against the drugs menace and
of the particular value of these two little planes.
Jane Griffiths: I will stop there,
Chairman, thank you.
Mr Leslie
35. I have just a few questions on the administration
of justice in the Dependent Territories because, of course, this
has a significant impact on the capacity for the Dependent Territories
to defray their liabilities for the British Government. I have
just been reading through the report in a bit more detail, going
over some of the aspects to do with the police force in particular
and how, whilst there may not necessarily be problems with finance
behind the police forces in a lot of these Dependent Territories
but particularly in the Caribbean, there are difficulties in terms
of the level of training and the level of experience that police
officers can have in the Dependent Territories. What plans do
you have to address these problems?
(Sir John Kerr) I think that one has to think
of three-part action: first, legislation-the Chairman asked about
the introduction of all-crimes legislation-getting the statute
book right; secondly, proper regulation; and thirdly, enforcement.
I agree with you that the strengthening of the law enforcement
agencies and the justice agencies is very important. I think first
I should mention the White Collar Crime Investigation Team, which
gets a rather bad press in this report because of the timing of
this report. There was a problem. I went to see these people,
who are also in Miami, when I was in Washington. I was encouraged
by how very keen on them and on this exercise the United States
authorities are. I think that WCCIT, working alongside the FBI,
with a bit of luck is now through its teething troubles. I think
it could be very important indeed.
36. What were those main problems? Could
you outline those for me?
(Sir John Kerr) A problem of management structures
and a problem of the unwillingness in some Territories of the
local authorities to accept the US/UK nature of WCCIT, whereby
there would be an FBI man alongside the British law enforcement
officer interviewing the witness, which caused, for some of these
Territories, quasi- constitutional sensitivities about the FBI
presence, but I think that is now resolved. I think WCCIT is the
right answer. I think this operation, particularly against money
laundering, is a very good development and I think if the NAO
were writing their report today they would be a little more up-beat
about it. The reason I took an interest from Washington was because
I was worried at the time about the situation correctly described
in this report.
37. In terms of the experience and training
projects of police officers in particular, where they are acting
on their own with their own remit, how can we encourage that?
(Sir John Kerr) Yes, there is a great deal of
technical assistance provided from the United Kingdom to help
with training. There is also, in relation to the court system,
a serious effort to get round, or assist the Dependent Territories
get round, the three problems defined in paragraph 3.15 of the
report. Of course, the danger with just bringing in police experts
from outside to advise is that however effective the techniques
that they are teaching, the Dependent Territory has no ownership
of those techniques, that people think, jolly interesting, and
in due course the guy goes away again. I agree with you that it
is very important to achieve a localisation of the technique so
that the Dependent Territory feels it owns it. At present what
we are spending of the taxpayers' money on the administration
of justice in the Caribbean Dependent Territories is about £1½
; million a year on law revision and law reform, just under £½
million a year on five people out there occupying legal posts,
and we are also building courts. We have spent £600,000 building
a court in the BVI, which is complete, £90,000 refurbishing
the court in the TCI, which is complete, and we are spending £860,000
on building a court in Anguilla. So there is a lot of money being
spent. I think that is excellent, provided that the Dependent
Territories become owners of the techniques and the exercise and
its importance.
38. I know some of the Dependent Territories
are obviously larger than others and in some where there is a
larger population it is easier to have a localised independent
administration of justice in terms of trial by jury because in
a larger Dependent Territory you have the capacity actually to
draw together a jury, whereas you do not in others. I was interested
actually on page 66 of the report to see a little note about Pitcairn,
one of our smallest Dependent Territories, where apparently there
have been questions raised about what is going on in terms of
justice and the solution has been devised that you are going to
have an annual tour by a United Kingdom police officer visiting,
flying out. Well, there is no airport, of course, on Pitcairn,
so I guess this poor police officer is going to have to get on
a boat. Where is the police offer coming from and how long will
he be out there?
(Sir John Kerr) I confess I do not know the answer
to that.
Mr Leslie: May we have a note on
that?
Chairman: And what is his name!
Mr Leslie
39. And will he enjoy it?
(Sir John Kerr) I now know the answer. He is coming
from Kent. He comes six weeks a year, seconded, tasked to conduct
community policing duties and train the resident officer.
1 Note: see Appendix 2, p. 26 (PAC/119). Back
|
