Select Committee on Public Accounts Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20 - 39)

MONDAY 15 DECEMBER 1997

SIR JOHN KERR, KCMG, MR PETER WESTMACOTT, LVO, MR JOHN KERBY, and MR LEE BEAUMONT

MR JAMIE MORTIMER

  20.  What is the latest invention from yourselves and Gibraltar?
  (Sir John Kerr)  I would say it rather depends on the outcome of...... I am sorry?

  21.  I am obviously not going to get an answer, Chairman. I will return to it later.
  (Sir John Kerr)  I am trying to give you a completely honest answer. There is at present a dispute between us and the Commission as to whether another raft of Directives, the Article 100a Directives, should be applied in Gibraltar. These are Single Market Directives, some of which, in our view, have no application whatsoever in Gibraltar. Were the Commission to succeed in persuading us that they are correct, or were the Court to find that they were correct, another 350 Directives would have to be applied in Gibraltar, and any deadline I tried to set for you today would be meaningless.

  Chairman:  Mr Hope, do you want to come back on that later?

Mr Hope

  22.  I think I might. Can we move dramatically across the globe back to Miami, on page 23, looking at the issues around law and order. It talks about establishing a Regional Crime Intelligence System to replace the Regional Drugs Intelligence Unit in BVI. Is the new organisation established? Is it working? Have we achieved a success there?
  (Sir John Kerr)  Yes. This is the unit I visited in Miami where the British policeman and British customs official working in our Consulate in Miami, working alongside the FBI with secure communications equipment, which we have paid for and have supplied to the Dependent Territories, can exchange information on suspects, American information, because they are plugged into the FBI and the American Coastguard and the American Inter-Agency Task Force. It works in both directions. Some information is coming out of the Dependent Territories, some information is going into the Dependent Territories and, perhaps best of all, it works between individual Dependent Territories. It is working very well.

  23.  Can I move then to transport on page 37. I am sorry to be moving us about at this pace but we do not get a great deal of time. From paragraph 4.32 it is clear that this Government bears a huge amount of risk in the Dependent Territories where they cannot bear their own risks, and we have substantial liabilities. How far are we exposed?
  (Sir John Kerr)  The Bermuda government have had comprehensive cover; the Gibraltar government have cover; the Falklands government, it does not really arise but there is cover. It is not feasible for St Helena or Pitcairn. I think we are talking about a problem that is basically a Caribbean problem, and I wonder if you were planning to come back to it, Mr Chairman, later in the afternoon.

  24.  Can I cover one more area then, Chairman. The findings of the recent Select Committee on Montserrat suggested that there are too many players in the existing machinery, lack of co-ordination and too many decision-makers being one of the problems experienced there. In terms of the report's findings on handling matters as a result of this, would you agree with that and is the Foreign Office now working to remove those layers of decision-makers and players in the machinery to ensure that in future if disasters occur we will not be in the same difficulties as we have been in?
  (Sir John Kerr)  This is an area of policy. Ministers will be meeting to consider their Dependent Territories Review, which is at present in hand. Of course, in 1992 as a result of the excellent NAO report and the report from the Public Accounts Committee we greatly strengthened the extra tier that we had in Bridgetown, both the Dependent Territories Regional Secretariat and the Development Division there in Bridgetown. So we have partly added a tier there. I think it is possible that in the Dependent Territories Review now going on people in both ministries, in the Department for International Development as well as in the Foreign Office, will wonder whether there is some simplification of the structure which would be possible, but I am afraid I do not feel I can really prejudge that.

Jane Griffiths

  25.  Can we look at capital aids, looking at page 18 of the report. The prisons project cost £13 million, I believe, and there does not seem to have been particularly good assessment of projects and plans, given that the locals have differing priorities for public services. Sorry, I am not phrasing this question very well. Why have there been apparent failures in the assessment of project plans and of the contractors' ability to deliver those promptly and effectively, as seems to be illustrated by the prisons project?
  (Sir John Kerr)  I do not want to speak for the Department for International Development. John Kerby may want to speak for himself. I think actually the procedures are rather good, as far as I can see them. I have been learning them over this weekend. Decisions are taken on the basis of, where they exist, country policy plans, and certainly our own internal country strategy papers, which are in turn linked to the Bridgetown exercise, the annual plan produced by the Development Division there, and the Regional Secretariat next door. We think that where a project goes wrong it does not go wrong for lack of prior planning. I think that in the exercise in capital aid, which, of course, is now pretty limited here-it does not go on in the richer of these countries-all DfID's normal project appraisal techniques would apply. I cannot speak for the particular prisons project. I do not know whether you would like Mr Kerby to speak to it or whether it was simply an example of a system which I agree clearly is not perfect.

  26.  I was using the prisons project as an example. I was not particularly asking you for detail about it, but the report does say in paragraph 2.12 that no attempt was made to assess the likelihood of the Territories being able to absorb the costs. I was not suggesting that there was a lack of planning. I was suggesting that there was something missing from the planning if it was not known at the start whether the Territories could absorb those costs or not?
  (Sir John Kerr)  May I ask Mr Kerby if he wants to enlighten us?
  (Mr Kerby)  Mr Chairman, I do not know that there is a great deal to add to the report itself. It seems to me to very fairly state the situation. Clearly the prisons project is a rather unusual case. It is not the case, in my experience in 30 years in this line of business, that we have ever contemplated before a project comprising the building of four prisons. Clearly there are problems, particularly in small communities like this, such as the NAO had reported in 2.7 and 2.8. People see these rather state-of-the-art prisons being completed and wonder whether the resources could not have been used elsewhere. They were, on the other hand, designed to the specifications of Judge Tumim, who visited and who was instrumental, I think, in leading to the production of this project. That was a decision that ministers took that there must be proper prisons in these Territories. There were then some of the problems which arise in almost any capital aid programme such as are described in the report, particularly exacerbated by the problems of operating in small islands. The need for the running costs to maintain the prisons was recognised and this is why in 2.12 it is recorded that the United Kingdom minister asked the Chief Ministers to ensure that adequate budgetary provision would be made for running them. So the problem was at that stage clearly seen and action was taken at the best possible time to ensure that the necessary funds were available, but clearly it was a substantial addition to their budget.

  27.  On projects in general, not specifically prison projects, according to paragraph 2.14 some of them have been completed up to three years late, and in four cases there were no completion dates shown. How did that come about?
  (Mr Kerby)  I have to tell you I cannot answer that in detail. I think if you would like project-by-project details we will have to write to you with those.

  Chairman:  We will have a note. [1]

Jane Griffiths

  28.  In part on that, there was a 37 per cent. increase in costs for the Princess Alexandra Hospital in Anguilla, which seems rather a massive escalation to me. Was that anticipated? How was it dealt with?
  (Mr Kerby)  Clearly it was not anticipated. It is reported here what the budget was at the start of the project and what it eventually rose to. Clearly one can within the aid programme as a whole encompass an increase such as that. It is clearly not the way one would hope to design a project.

  29.  If I can move on to disaster planning, it has been touched on earlier but I wondered, is it true that not all the Dependent Territories have fully developed disaster plans yet?
  (Sir John Kerr)  No, I think it is no longer true. I was describing to your colleague a moment ago the steps that have been taken in each of the TCI, BVI, Caymans, Anguilla and Bermuda; plus the regional structures, with CDERA, the emergency response agency; with model legislation which has been drafted, financed by DfID; and with attempts to learn from each other and learn from experience. I think that awareness of the need for disaster preparedness has grown thanks to the disaster in Montserrat. It is hard to exaggerate the scale of that drama for Montserrat, a population down from 11,000 to 4,000 and dropping. I do not think any particular disaster preparedness plan would have enabled us cope much better with that than we have, but I think it has served to encourager les autres.

  30.  That is fair enough but it is, after all, well-known that most of the Caribbean is prone to natural disasters of one kind or another, and whilst a volcano can erupt at any time and the damage can be greater or lesser, it does seem rather strange that there was not up to the early to mid 1990s at any rate full disaster planning when it was known that disasters might well occur. So whilst the scale of the planning might not have been able to make it possible to cope with the Montserrat volcano, the lack of disaster planning at all seems rather odd.
  (Sir John Kerr)  I am sorry, I do not accept that there was a lack of disaster planning at all. I agree that the picture is imperfect but I had been trying to explain that there has been a serious attempt to improve disaster preparedness and I do think that it was better by the early 1990s than it had been by, say, the early 1960s or early 1970s. I think that people are aware of these risks and are working on them. This kind of report is, however, helpful to lend encouragement.

  31.  If I can move on briefly, on the law and order question, specifically drug trafficking, looking at the bottom of page 23, it is indicated that £2.2 million was provided for law enforcement mainly and that included the provision of drugs surveillance aircraft for the British Virgin Islands and the Turks and Caicos Islands. How much of that £2.2 million was spent on those aircraft? I may have missed it in the report but I cannot find the exact breakdown.
  (Sir John Kerr)  I am sorry, I do not know the answer to that. The two aircraft are financed from different pockets. One of them is financed from FCO good governance funds, the other is financed from military technical assistance funds. One has RAF loan personnel, one has RN personnel. I do not know how much it cost in 1994-95. It is a small component now in expenditure in 1997-98 of over £5 million directly by the British taxpayer in the five ways I described earlier. Moreover, it is a way that is now working. I am assured that these planes are now flying and have been responsible for a number of seizures.

  32.  Are they flying as much as they should be, because it seems they did not have night-flying capability, or only limited night-flying capability, and it would seem to me that most drugs deliveries happen probably at night?
  (Sir John Kerr)  I am sure that is right, though I am not an expert. They now have that night- vision equipment.

  33.  So this report is not up-to-date then?
  (Sir John Kerr)  This report is not up-to-date for the very good reason that it was completed in the spring and we have moved on. Two recent seizures in the British Virgin Islands, both relatively small but cumulatively producing cocaine worth $11 million, were the direct result of leads established by the BVI-based plane and I am sure that if I asked the Turks and Caicos they would produce a number in relation to the recent activities of the TCI plane. I am assured that they work. I did mention earlier that there is the problem that we do not, under our aid rules, provide for running costs. So I am sure that if the plane needs spares and money is not available for its spares, then there will be delays. At present, apparently, there is no such delay.

  34.  But their flying times have been restricted because of an inability to pay for enough fuel because fuel costs were not allowed for in the original provision of the aircraft funds, is that right?
  (Sir John Kerr)  No. We could not pay fuel costs. We have no pocket from which we could pay fuel costs. The general point I would make is that I think the two governments in question, the BVI government and the TCI government, are now well aware both of the general need for action against the drugs menace and of the particular value of these two little planes.

  Jane Griffiths:  I will stop there, Chairman, thank you.

Mr Leslie

  35.  I have just a few questions on the administration of justice in the Dependent Territories because, of course, this has a significant impact on the capacity for the Dependent Territories to defray their liabilities for the British Government. I have just been reading through the report in a bit more detail, going over some of the aspects to do with the police force in particular and how, whilst there may not necessarily be problems with finance behind the police forces in a lot of these Dependent Territories but particularly in the Caribbean, there are difficulties in terms of the level of training and the level of experience that police officers can have in the Dependent Territories. What plans do you have to address these problems?
  (Sir John Kerr)  I think that one has to think of three-part action: first, legislation-the Chairman asked about the introduction of all-crimes legislation-getting the statute book right; secondly, proper regulation; and thirdly, enforcement. I agree with you that the strengthening of the law enforcement agencies and the justice agencies is very important. I think first I should mention the White Collar Crime Investigation Team, which gets a rather bad press in this report because of the timing of this report. There was a problem. I went to see these people, who are also in Miami, when I was in Washington. I was encouraged by how very keen on them and on this exercise the United States authorities are. I think that WCCIT, working alongside the FBI, with a bit of luck is now through its teething troubles. I think it could be very important indeed.

  36.  What were those main problems? Could you outline those for me?
  (Sir John Kerr)  A problem of management structures and a problem of the unwillingness in some Territories of the local authorities to accept the US/UK nature of WCCIT, whereby there would be an FBI man alongside the British law enforcement officer interviewing the witness, which caused, for some of these Territories, quasi- constitutional sensitivities about the FBI presence, but I think that is now resolved. I think WCCIT is the right answer. I think this operation, particularly against money laundering, is a very good development and I think if the NAO were writing their report today they would be a little more up-beat about it. The reason I took an interest from Washington was because I was worried at the time about the situation correctly described in this report.

  37.  In terms of the experience and training projects of police officers in particular, where they are acting on their own with their own remit, how can we encourage that?
  (Sir John Kerr)  Yes, there is a great deal of technical assistance provided from the United Kingdom to help with training. There is also, in relation to the court system, a serious effort to get round, or assist the Dependent Territories get round, the three problems defined in paragraph 3.15 of the report. Of course, the danger with just bringing in police experts from outside to advise is that however effective the techniques that they are teaching, the Dependent Territory has no ownership of those techniques, that people think, jolly interesting, and in due course the guy goes away again. I agree with you that it is very important to achieve a localisation of the technique so that the Dependent Territory feels it owns it. At present what we are spending of the taxpayers' money on the administration of justice in the Caribbean Dependent Territories is about £1½ ; million a year on law revision and law reform, just under £½ million a year on five people out there occupying legal posts, and we are also building courts. We have spent £600,000 building a court in the BVI, which is complete, £90,000 refurbishing the court in the TCI, which is complete, and we are spending £860,000 on building a court in Anguilla. So there is a lot of money being spent. I think that is excellent, provided that the Dependent Territories become owners of the techniques and the exercise and its importance.

  38.  I know some of the Dependent Territories are obviously larger than others and in some where there is a larger population it is easier to have a localised independent administration of justice in terms of trial by jury because in a larger Dependent Territory you have the capacity actually to draw together a jury, whereas you do not in others. I was interested actually on page 66 of the report to see a little note about Pitcairn, one of our smallest Dependent Territories, where apparently there have been questions raised about what is going on in terms of justice and the solution has been devised that you are going to have an annual tour by a United Kingdom police officer visiting, flying out. Well, there is no airport, of course, on Pitcairn, so I guess this poor police officer is going to have to get on a boat. Where is the police offer coming from and how long will he be out there?
  (Sir John Kerr)  I confess I do not know the answer to that.

  Mr Leslie:  May we have a note on that?

  Chairman:  And what is his name!

Mr Leslie

  39.  And will he enjoy it?
  (Sir John Kerr)  I now know the answer. He is coming from Kent. He comes six weeks a year, seconded, tasked to conduct community policing duties and train the resident officer.


1   Note: see Appendix 2, p. 26 (PAC/119). Back


 
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