Examination of Witnesses (Questions 140
- 159)
23 JANUARY 1998
DAME BARBARA
MILLS, QC, and MR
F MARTIN
140. Can I ask you who was responsible for
writing the SCOPE program?
(Dame Barbara Mills) I assume the
contractors were, but may I say that this was all done with the
help or guidance, is the more appropriate word, of the CCTA, so
we did not just embark on this on our own.
141. You say you presume the contractors
did.
(Dame Barbara Mills) We worked with
them. You do not just say --
142. Who were the contractors?
(Dame Barbara Mills) Do I have to
name the contractors here? I do not mind naming them.
143. Well, Mr Chairman, we have here a situation
where we have 100 per cent overrun and only 50 per cent of the
jobs done and I think that a contractor that has somehow not managed
to reach these sort of targets does not deserve the protection.
(Dame Barbara Mills) I just do not
know about this. I can certainly give you the name, but I just
do not want to bandy around names when they are not here to hear
what is being said and I am afraid this is my first appearance
here --
144. Dame Barbara, do not worry because
we will have a complete record of this account which they can
read.
(Dame Barbara Mills) Well, I just
ask the Chairman for some help because I just do not know what
the situation is.
Chairman
145. I think you have to answer the question.
(Dame Barbara Mills) Unisys.
Mr Page
146. Have any of their fees or any of their
invoices ever been disputed or challenged?
(Dame Barbara Mills) We are having
the financial argument at the moment as to how we wind all this
up. I think it has almost been settled.
147. So can we possibly be looking for a
reduction in these costs that have already been spent here?
(Dame Barbara Mills) I am not sure
about that. I am really not sure about it.
148. Dame Barbara, we have a situation where
it has run over by 100 per cent, we have some nearly 50 per cent,
42 per cent or something that have not been completed. I believe
that a lot of the problems that you have got inside the Service
have been because you have not had an IT system in place able
to give that effective service and I do believe, and I am exceedingly
worried, that the idea of the PFI seems to have magically come
out of the woodwork in December which I happen to know was exactly
the same time as the NAO put its report in.
(Dame Barbara Mills) Mr Page, this
had absolutely nothing to do with that whatsoever. We were dissatisfied
for some time beforehand and I think, to be fair, since I have
been asked to name Unisys, I should say this and this will perhaps
be particularly familiar to Mr Wardle because, as I mentioned,
we have had a lot of changes of the law and legislation during
this time which meant that the program had to be rewritten in
many parts. Now, the problem is, and I am not an IT expert, but
my understanding of it is that back in 1989-90, when all this
was being planned, people were tending to go for very large systems
which had dumb terminals. Now, that I think was a mistake, but
with the benefit of hindsight that was a mistake. What one now
has nowadays, and they are infinitely better, as I am sure you
know, are intelligent terminals and that is what we are going
for. To go on down the dumb terminal route was very unhelpful,
so we were faced with a very difficult position and a very difficult
decision to make and I hope we have got it right. I think we have.
149. Dame Barbara, dumb terminals and active
terminals have been seen for their relative advantages and disadvantages
for a number of years now, so why only now? Why has this decision
to change not been made earlier?
(Dame Barbara Mills) Because, as
I explained, there is always a very difficult problem when you
have got a contract and you have decided to go down one route,
so when do you actually decide it is the wrong route and you will
stop because you are wasting a lot of money when you do that,
we all know that, so the big question is: is it better to plough
on with what you have got or is it better just to stop right now?
As I have already conceded, I think, to the Chairman, I do not
defend everything. I think probably we should have stopped a bit
earlier, but again it is very easy to say that and then write
off a lot of money which is what you are doing.
150. I can understand you saying at this
particular point, "Oh yes, now is the time to change. Now
is the time for the new system" and things like that, but
I have to tell you that that sort of remark and that sort of comment
has been made in front of this Committee for all the years that
I have been a Member.
(Dame Barbara Mills) Well, I am
sure it has because I think that computer programs are very difficult
to get right, particularly big projects. I think there has been
a lot of difficulty, not just in my field, but in other people's
fields as well. The optimism at the beginning of a program, because
I remember vividly going and seeing when the first prototypes
were coming off with SCOPE and it looked great, it really did
look like the answer to our problems, but then all sorts of other
difficulties came in, it is not very user- friendly, as you have
seen, and so on, and I think that we have made the right decision
now and I just myself wish we had made it a bit earlier, but,
as I say, it is so easy when you have hindsight.
151. I was just going to ask you, well,
in fact my last question was exactly that, that it was shown by
the initial trials with the staff not to be user-friendly.
(Dame Barbara Mills) Yes, but it
was then modified. I went down and I saw it when it was actually
the very first time it was running because I am a believer in
management by walkabout and I went and saw it and it looked great.
We then put it in and I have to say that for those who have had
no computers before, because do not let us forget that some of
the offices had no computers at that date, they thought it was
wonderful and those who had had a different system found that
it was not very user-friendly compared to the one they had had,
so we were getting very different views. It was modified to make
it more user-friendly, but it still is just not the right generation
of computers, it really is not, particularly, as I say, and this
point has been made all the way around the room, because what
we want is a cross-criminal justice system operating, not just
in funnels and individual bits of it.
Mr Love
152. Can I take you back to some of the
issues that Mr Wardle raised because when I read the report, it
did strike me very strongly that nowhere in the report does it
say that the relationship between the CPS and the police forces
is good or developing. It is very, very carefully worded in the
report in the words that they use in the relationship between
the two organisations. I know that you have commented on that
before. I would like to ask you, do you think that you have made
good progress in the period that you have been Director in the
relationship with the police forces?
(Dame Barbara Mills) Yes, and you
will say, "Well, she would say that, wouldn't she?",
but can I just give some examples. When I became Director, I felt
very much that the one area where I did not know people very well
was particularly outside London, because I had always been London
and southern- based, and particularly the police, so I started
a programme for the first 15 months of visiting every single branch
of the CPS, and there were 120 then, and meeting with and having
dinner with the chief constable and meeting at lunchtime with
the various other representatives, including other members of
the police force. I must say that every chief constable in those
days said "We have very good working relationships with the
CPS, we do not know where the problem is but it is certainly not
in my patch". When you eat your way round 43 police forces
you do begin to get a bit of an impression about it.
Mr Love: You certainly have my sympathy
about going round 43 police forces.
Chairman
153. I must say you look very well on it,
Dame Barbara!
(Dame Barbara Mills) I have not
been out for six months or so! But seriously, there are going
to be some people in a huge organisation who do not like the people
they work with but by and large it is a very small number. Certainly,
of course, a lot of the police officers have never known anything
except working with the CPS now we have been around for ten years
so that is a very different approach.
Mr Love
154. Can I just question you on that because
you did start the pilot initiative where you were sending the
CPS round to police stations presumably primarily to help the
police force. I know that you have had difficulty in implementing
that because of the time constraints.
(Dame Barbara Mills) Yes.
155. But it says very clearly in the report
that the police take-up of this particular scheme was "disappointing".
(Dame Barbara Mills) Yes.
156. Does that not say volumes? Here you
are trying to help yet no-one seems to want the help.
(Dame Barbara Mills) No, I do not
think it does say volumes. What it demonstrates is that the actual
practicalities are quite difficult. Police run a 24 hour a day,
seven days a week system; we do not. You have the shift pattern
which we then had to try and slot in with when our lawyers were
available. Then the other thing was that it was a very new idea
and some police found it quite difficult to adapt to it. Another
difficulty was that some felt that they really ought to go to
their supervising officers rather than come direct to us. We tried
all sorts of different methods. We tried going through the supervising
officer but came to the conclusion that was not a very good system
so we tried to keep open house. I think that if we could run it
for longer people would get more accustomed to it and use it more.
The difficulty is the resources as you say.
157. I would agree with that, except it
seems to me that is in some ways a recognition of the failure
that you hope over time will improve. I think what this Committee
is looking for is some sign that there are positive improvements
there. Can I take you on because I want to move on to the joint
performance management [10]
initiative.
(Dame Barbara Mills) Yes, surely.
158. I read in Appendix 4 to the report
exactly what it is.
(Dame Barbara Mills) Yes.
159. I just want to ask you do you think
that analysing data together and then having quarterly meetings
and appropriate action developed is the type of relationship that
you would want to set up between the two organisations? Surely
that is much too hands-off and what we need is a much closer relationship.
(Dame Barbara Mills) Yes, I agree
with you but this is just one method of handling of the problem.
There is a very close relationship. Police officers go to the
court, magistrates' court, sometimes too often as we have heard
today. Our lawyers are at court, they meet them, they discuss
cases in conference. This is just one aspect of it. This is, if
you like, the more number based aspect. Why, for example, are
the discontinuance figures higher? We break it right down, even
to individual police stations. Why are they higher in the cases
that come from a particular police station? That is the sort of
thing they talk about. This does make it look a bit formalised
and bureaucratic and meeting heavy but it is really not like that
on the ground at all. I have actually been to one of these meetings
and seen them. They are hugely important. It may have been a little
bit different because I was there, but they were still discussing
it all quite well.
10 Note: See Evidence, Appendix 2, page 32 (PAC 238). Back
|
