Examination of Witnesses (Questions 260
- 272)
23 JANUARY 1998
DAME BARBARA
MILLS, QC, and MR
F MARTIN
260. Mr Martin, you have an estimate of
how much it would cost to switch systems?
(Dame Barbara Mills) We are not
switching systems. What we are doing is keeping the systems we
have got, SCOPE in 53 branches, CATS and the various other ones
and the other systems, so there are not going to be no computers;
there is going to be a new system which talks across, we hope,
because there is no point in putting in a system which only talks
to us; we have got to talk across to the police, to the courts,
to the defendants and everyone. It should not be too difficult.
261. Moving on then, what estimates have
you got for the replacement system?
(Dame Barbara Mills) We have not
yet because we are going for PFI. To go for PFI, you have got
to get some partner who will do it with you and we have not got
that yet.
262. So there will still be a cost implication,
will there not, because they are not going to be able to do it
for nothing?
(Dame Barbara Mills) No, but they
come into it as service providers. We have no capital.
263. But you must have a budget.
(Dame Barbara Mills) Well, it has
got to come out of the efficiencies that are created by the new
systems to pay for them because they come in on a risk basis,
otherwise we cannot do anything.
264. What is the timescale for the new system?
(Dame Barbara Mills) Well, I will
tell you what I am told, but without giving any guarantees. I
am told two years. I give you no guarantees at all. I think it
would be absolutely wrong for me to do so.
265. What procedures do you have in place
to make sure that the decision this time is going to be the right
decision, for example, whether or not the new system will be more
user- friendly than SCOPE and whether it will reflect the working
practices not only that you currently operate, but any changes
further down the line?
(Dame Barbara Mills) I take the
best advice I can get from the best experts explaining all the
problems-I say "I", I am personalising, I am not my
computer department-explaining what the situation is at present
and what we want from it. We need some flexibility because you
have only got to look at the programme you have got on criminal
justice this year-ECHR, Freedom of Information Act, all the other
things that are coming through-to know we have simply got to have
a lot of flexibility built in to be able to make sure that our
systems adjust to it. That is what we do. We take the best advice
we can and we hope that it is good advice this time.
Chairman
266. Dame Barbara, just on that last point
I think a number of the Committee would like to see a note from
you on frankly when we can expect the integrated system for the
CPS and for the police I suppose[13].
(Dame Barbara Mills) And the courts.
267. And the courts. You have said you do
not know when you will be approving the PFI, for example.
(Dame Barbara Mills) No.
268. What we need to know from you is the
extent to it, the timetable of the decision you foresee and the
best information you have on what is going to happen with this
computer system[14].
(Dame Barbara Mills) I will certainly
give you that from our point of view and as far as we can ascertain
it from the points of view of our partners in the criminal justice
system. We will certainly do that.
269. Good, thank you. Dame Barbara, you
have put up an impressive performance. I do not know about the
prosecution service but if ever I need a defence lawyer I am coming
to you. I should say particularly if I am guilty!
(Dame Barbara Mills) Just do not
tell me! I can do a good plea in mitigation for you.
270. If I may just finish with a comment
and then I will ask you for something at the end. I am no expert
on the criminal justice system, indeed I am glad to say I have
had no contact with it at all other than picking up pieces of
constituents, but it does seem to me listening today and to previous
evidence we have seen that you are working inside a justice system
which seems to operate in a steady state of chaos when it comes
to organising the handling of cases. It is hard to avoid that
conclusion, frankly, when you get a 75 per cent returns of cases
by barristers, or 60 per cent in your Inspector's case reported
on Friday, and from that the resulting late allocation of cases
to barristers. That is inevitably going to lead in some respects
to the failure of justice. That failure may take the form of poor
treatment of witnesses, as you have outlined with youngsters,
it may take the form of the evasion of conviction by a guilty
person. Either way there is a serious risk that justice is not
done. It is a matter that this Committee is going to return to.
Could I ask you, and this is very much an "open sesame"
for you and my Committee will kill me for giving you this option,
to let us have a note not just on what you judge to be the operation
of CPS in that but where you see other aspects of the system which
are worthy of observation[15].
You made the comment that "an awful lot of things could be
done better and cheaper jointly by the criminal justice system".
I have collapsed two sentences into one but broadly you said that.
I would like you to elaborate on that. I am not looking for a
PhD but just your own views. Is that possible?
(Dame Barbara Mills) Yes. I have
only got one hesitation as a good civil servant which is I should
not really trample into other departments‘ territory.
271. It is not a matter for publication,
it is just for our own information.
(Dame Barbara Mills) Yes. I would
very much like to do that but if you can give me just a little
time because there is a lot on at the moment.
272. Thank you very much indeed.
(Dame Barbara Mills) As I say, I
was going to invite everyone. I know that a number of Members
of the Committee are new Members of Parliament anyhow but we do
always invite Members of Parliament to come and visit their local
branch. I do find in many ways it gives a much, much better picture
than I can, however long I speak for. If you do not mind I would
like to send you an invitation to your local branch and if we
have done a report on your branch we will send you a copy but
if not a comparable one.
Chairman: Thank you very much.
13 Note: See Evidence, Appendix 1, page 30 (PAC 203). Back
14
Note: See Evidence, Appendix 1, page 30 (PAC 203). Back
15
Note: See Evidence, Appendix 1, page 30 (PAC 203). Back
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