Examination of witnesses (Questions 100
- 119)
WEDNESDAY 25 FEBRUARY 1998
MR FRANK
MARTIN, Second Treasury Officer
of Accounts, HM Treasury, further examined. SIR
PAUL CONDON,
QPM, and MR
DAVID OMAND
100. There is a gap here which we cannot
fill today, but I feel it would be helpful in future if we did
have an understanding and so if we could possibly get a note on
it because we simply do not have the figures.
(Sir Paul Condon) The choice would go something
like this: that if I was this evening parading, as a young inspector,
a group of officers at a police station at ten o'clock at night
and I am told as I parade that PC Brown has gone sick tonight,
then what you do is you make do with one less colleague and you
get on and deliver it. They do not have the option of saying,
"How can I conjure up eight hours of overtime to get someone
in to back-fill". That is fictional.
101. So we get into quite a vicious loop,
do we not, because if somebody is absent, we are not going to
fill it with overtime, the remaining officers have to cover and,
therefore, are likely to experience more stress and more possibility
of being vulnerable at work, so the more that this problem is
not managed, the more we are putting more stress on other officers,
so the case goes round and round in a downward spiral.
(Sir Paul Condon) The co-ordinating logo in one
part of the Met is "Let's get better", but other colleagues
have nakedly stolen a logo from the private sector which is, "Absence
makes your friends work harder", and that has gone up in
locations. The culture in policing, as you would know from your
family connections, sir, is the buddy-buddy support and they do
not in a cavalier way routinely go sick. They know that if there
are only seven or eight of them on night duty tonight, if one
of them goes sick, that is additional pressure on the others.
102. Can I turn to figure 7 and ask, is
it simply tougher in the Met than it is in other cities and that
is why you, on average one day a week, experience greater sickness
absence?
(Sir Paul Condon) When you look at the figures
up and down the country, there are some interesting variables,
so forces who have a higher sickness record than us are as variable
as Lincolnshire, Staffordshire, Manchester, and Merseyside, so
a variety of urban and rural mixes. One of the things that can
influence the average days sick and the total number of days sick
is how many officers are working recuperative duties. Now, in
the Met we are highly civilianised. We have very little capacity
to bring officers in, put them on light duties or recuperative
duties, and if you do that, they come off the sickness records.
Many, many forces have almost decivilianised to make space to
bring officers in on recuperative duties so that they come off
the sickness record, so again there are some value for money trade-offs
around how you pull various levers which can influence sickness
records.
103. I will come back to recuperative duties
in a moment——
(Sir Paul Condon) But our understanding is that
many of the forces who have low sickness records make extensive
use of recuperative duties which means that colleagues disappear
off the sickness record, but there is a cost associated with that.
104. I suppose the information, as we have
heard earlier, is not good enough to make comparisons then because
of those kinds of variables that we have not got control of. How
can you be sure that the Met, in terms of its sickness absence
and taking out these variables you have described, is managing
this as effectively as other forces in the country?
(Sir Paul Condon) Well, again you can refer to
various averages. You can look to our productivity, you can look
at outcomes, what we are achieving with the officers we have and
so on, but what I have tried to convey today is that we can and
will and should do better. We have in place now the infrastructure
to do that, so I am confident that this will get better. I am
not complacent, but another way of looking at this is with the
high attrition rate of injuries, of assaults. I have had four
officers murdered during my time as Commissioner and in the whole
history of the Met, 180 years, there have only been 28 officers
murdered, and 15 have been in the last ten years, I think, and
four in my time as Commissioner, so what they face out there on
behalf of society are some enormous challenges and if the Met
had been, if you like, the worst performer on sickness on every
issue, I would have wanted to do much better, but I would not
have been surprised. The policing environment is more challenging
in London, I believe, than anywhere else in the country and I
think that partly explains the sickness record, although we will
do considerably better.
105. Can I take you to figure 16 on the
basis of that reply on page 40? You have told the Committee repeatedly
that you feel that the figures are not because of abuse by officers
of the sickness scheme, but you have not taken up the opportunity
offered to you by other Members of the Committee to say that there
were other priorities at the time. If we look back at Figure 16
we see from 1991 to 1997 stress has been steadily increasing?
(Sir Paul Condon) Yes.
106. Indeed from 1993-94 the curve is at
its steepest. Yet, we only now see in today's report that you
are implementing stress counselling, stress awareness packages
and so on. Given that it is not abused by officers, given that
it is not due to other priorities at the time, does this not just
look like a failure of management to stop and deal with a problem
which has been growing over a number of years?
(Sir Paul Condon) I will answer your question,
but firstly, where management intervention was possible, if you
look from 1994-95 when we introduced an officer's safety programme,
we have reduced by almost 50 per cent the injuries on duty. That
was amenable to management intervention, we spotted it, we responded,
and we clawed back all those lost days. What has happened around
stress—and we have always had an infrastructure of counselling
and counsellors, and that has been in place throughout the period
under review—is in wider society and within policing in
particular is an acceptance that stress is legitimate, can lead
to medical retirements, and there have been some key legal judgments.
One of the matters where there needs to be reform is that there
was a key legal judgment which affected the Met in 1996 which
in essence said, if you want a medical pension for stress purposes
you did not have to show any trigger incident, you just had to
say policing generally had made you stressed. What the judge said
in that case is, "I am uneasy about the practical implications
of this conclusion. I felt bound to reach what may have widespread
ramifications. It may well be that the results from the definition
of injury in this schedule ...", that is stress, "...
have not been fully thought out in the context of psychiatric
illness suffered. It may be the responsible authorities may wish
to have another look at the wording of these regulations."
So the judge was saying—well, I am putting words into his
mouth—the judge was uneasy and unhappy with the implications
of that judgment. We find it very, very difficult to challenge
an assertion from any officer that just by being a police officer
they have become stressed without relating it to any trigger incident
or incidents. Although we have monitored that, I believe in relation
to stress it will need a fairly significant review of regulations
as well as a lot of hard work around counselling if we are going
to impact days lost through stress.
107. That is helpful but my question was,
you arrived in post in 1993 and these trends were going up then
and yet, when we look at page 27 onwards concerning good practice
guidelines, despite over the last five years a clear trend in
stress moving upwards, each of the areas of good practice contain
within them significant criticisms? Things were simply not being
done; targets not being set; documents being patchy; single reporting
points, which were raised earlier, not being agreed; no comparison
between divisions on rates of sickness. The very things that since
1993 as Figure 16 shows would have helped and should have been
implemented, were not due to people on the make, each one of these
contains a fairly damning criticism about why it has not yet happened.
You told us today that it is now happening, I just do not understand
why it was not grasped back in 1992-93.
(Sir Paul Condon) I think the very figure you
have settled on, Figure 16, shows we had analysed sickness, we
had analysed how days were being lost, we had analysed where we
could make management intervention. I think we have been very
successful in supporting colleagues in relation to injuries on
duty and assaults, and you can see the impact of that. We, like
everywhere else in society, primarily through legal judgments,
are finding it harder to minimise the impact of those colleagues
who are stressed and wish that stress to influence whether they
are at work or not, or whether they have a medical pension. We
have responded to stress in the Met, we have put in place an infrastructure
to deal with it. What I am saying is that I think the next big
challenge is probably around legislative reform as much as it
is around infrastructures for dealing with stress within the police
force.
108. Can I pick up two or three rather smaller
items than the broad brush item about why we have the position
we have and why the growth has happened and why action was not
taken? On page 34, paragraph 3.31, there is a description of how
separate regulations cover sickness absence, ill-health retirement
and disciplinary procedures, at the bottom of the paragraph. Can
you assure the Committee that police officers are not able to
take sickness absence while they are facing disciplinary procedures
and thereby a mix of the two regulations meaning actually people
are being paid and getting off work while being disciplined?
(Sir Paul Condon) This was explored in some length
before the Home Affairs Committee. I argued for reform, their
report recommends reform and we are awaiting a response from the
Home Secretary. So there are measures in train to address these
issues, to bring some sense to these issues.
109. So it could have been happening and
could still be happening until those reforms are introduced?
(Sir Paul Condon) Yes.
110. On page 53, Figure 24—I find
this a strange graph—describes the number of officers on
continuous leave for more than six months over a period, and the
graph has a dramatic curve to it, going up and then going down.
The sub-text underneath the graph says, "Changes to police
officer sick pay regulations may have contributed to a reduction
in the number of officers continuously sick for more than six
months ... since then the numbers have risen again." Why
did it go down and why has it risen again?
(Sir Paul Condon) In the context of 27,000 officers
the variations, although they look dramatic on that chart, when
you look at the numbers involved on the left hand side, you are
talking about a range between 150 and 250, so you are talking
about a range of 100 on 27,000. That is not to be ignored. There
have been variations since and it is a product of those officers
who are continuously sick for a period exceeding six months. So
if there is a serious riot and 40 officers are seriously injured
and are continuously sick, the numbers are too small for that
to be reflected in this sort of issue. The speculation is round,
"Has anything which has happened around the long-term sick
payments dramatically influenced that?" I do not think the
evidence is conclusive. If the speculation is, "Did a lot
of officers come back from long-term sick prior to the implementation
of this new regime?", I do not think the evidence is overwhelming
from this chart.
111. It is interesting that the regime actually
did not get introduced although it was talked about and in fact
discretion meant that it was not used and then the numbers have
gone back up again. Would that not be an indicator of some abuse
of the system?
(Sir Paul Condon) If we reflect it back to the
earlier chart you mentioned, Sir, the growing problem for us,
for all police forces and for society generally, is around stress-related
illness and its cultural acceptance. More and more people are
being diagnosed in relation to those issues. So there is a correlation
between the increase in stress and some fluctuations here. It
is a small group of officers on 27,000. So if you literally have
20 or 30 officers badly injured in a riot, you may pay the consequences
in terms of this chart six months down the line.
Mr Campbell
112. Sir Paul, if I can, I would like to
explore the link between early medical retirements and the growth
in long-term sickness absence. Perhaps we could start by looking
at paragraph 4.40 on page 53 where it suggests that the number
of officers retiring on medical grounds is going up and although
we have heard a lot of explanation as to where the Met might fit
in in terms of other forces, the reality is, is it not, that you
are actually going against the trend, that in most force areas
the trend for medical retirements is going down and yours is actually
going up?
(Sir Paul Condon) Part of that explanation is,
as I say, you have to get the whole comparator picture together.
Even with all the pressures the Met has faced historically, we
have had fewer medical pensions than other forces, so, even though
I have had an increase, I am running at about 1.66 per cent of
my strength each year being medically retired. That is significantly
lower than about ten or twelve of the other police forces, so
you have to look at the historical trends. We have been low on
medical retirements in percentage terms compared to many forces.
There has now been some adjustment. There are too many.
113. So it is balancing out and you are
coming into line with other areas?
(Sir Paul Condon) Not coming into line because
I do not think there is a sort of acceptable line or an acceptable
figure, but I am putting it into context, that our increase is
against a background of other forces who historically had high
usage of medical retirements.
114. And you are reviewing the situation,
are you not?
(Sir Paul Condon) Yes.
115. When will the results of the review
be known?
(Sir Paul Condon) We have completed our review.
There is an interplay now of a number of issues. I think that
most of the progress on medical retirements will need legislative
intervention and the Permanent Secretary has already mentioned
the pension review and other reviews and I think there are a number
of pieces of work coming together for the Home Secretary's consideration
and ultimately for parliamentary consideration which can impact
this issue, so with things like definition of injury on duty,
there are a whole range of definitional issues which at the moment
facilitate medical retirements which may perhaps need to be revisited.
116. If we could just explore this point
which you have raised a number of times about the need for an
exit strategy for officers so that they do not have to look at
early medical retirements to do that, I am right in thinking,
am I not, and you are going to tell me it is 30 years anyway,
but the 25-year officer who does his service and then retires
with a decent pension and goes on to work as a security guard
in the local factory, those days have gone, have they not?
(Sir Paul Condon) In what sense?
117. In the sense that people are working
longer in the police service?
(Sir Paul Condon) At constable level, half are
leaving on medical retirements and the peak age for male colleagues
to leave on medical retirement is 26, 27 years.
118. But they are expected to be working
longer? They are expected to be working at least 30 years before
they come off with what they would regard as a decent pension?
(Sir Paul Condon) Yes. At the moment the pay and
conditions are predicated on the 30-year career linked to the
pension. My argument is that that may actually now start to feel
like an anachronism and we should explore other points where colleagues
perhaps could leave the service with dignity and with a sensible
financial reward which may suit them and society.
119. Let us explore that. I may be wrong
in this, so you can correct me if I am. First of all, I need a
figure from you, if you can give it to me. What proportion of
your officers are recruited from the armed services?
(Sir Paul Condon) We do not set quotas or targets.
The average age of my recruits at the moment is about 24, 25 or
26. We tend not to take people directly from school or college.
We do have an accelerated promotion, fast-track system, so we
cream off some of the best graduates, but the average age is higher,
so we are drawing on people with previous life skills, common
sense, previous careers and we take our fair share of good servicemen.
When I take a passing-out parade, and this is anecdotal rather
than empirical, of a group of 140/150 recruits, I would expect
to see 15 perhaps former servicemen wearing medals of service.
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