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Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80 - 99)
WEDNESDAY 13 MAY 1998
MR MAURICE STOREY AND MR JOHN ASTBURY
80. So you can give this Committee an assurance
that all the centres now have all the staff correctly tested?
(Mr Storey) They have up to the
standard that was required at the time. We are currently reviewing
the point raised by the NAO Report on the training and seeing
that the fixed 20 hours training was not acceptable what we are
doing is going ahead and trying to train everybody in the individual
circumstances in which they operate and they will be certified
accordingly. That will take some time to achieve.
81. It was lucky you had an NAO Report,
was it not?
(Mr Storey) Yes.
Mr Page: No further questions.
Mr Wardle
82. Mr Storey, Mr Astbury, I am all coast
and no coastguard but that is not what I was wanting to pursue
because I was fascinated by your answers to my colleagues who
have a constituency interest. One of the things that fascinates
me is that Mr Astbury, you were born and raised in Liverpool and
that is one that is going and Mr Storey, you were born and raised
in Tyne and Wear and that is one that is going. Difficult questions
to answer. It seems to me reading this Report-this is uncharacteristic
of me I have to tell you-that there is in operational terms some
praise due here. I find myself wondering why the C&AG have
chosen this report for the Committee to consider now. We see a
lot of horror stories. From what has been drawn out from colleagues
communications do not seem terribly good, do they? Why do you
think that is? Is it just the culture?
(Mr Storey) I have got to say that
when I arrived I was quite concerned with the communications and
I am now doing something to try and address that.
83. I appreciate you are new, but is it
a lot of centres with relatively few officers on them. Typically,
how many officers are on one of these centres, not the regional
ones but the other centres?
(Mr Storey) If you are looking at
the coastal areas, you could be talking about two or three people
in a group that serves a particular area of coast.
84. So in that sort of group when you go
through a period of uncertainty you have Focus for Change, you
have the MoD's helicopter review, you have got your muted closures,
you have got your communications revolution, you have got a handful
of staff in isolated coastline parts of the country worrying with
each other over what is going to happen, have you not? I see a
lot of nodding. That problem has occurred in other services. It
occurs with GPs when there is change afoot because they spend
a lot of time working on their own. Is that not all the more reason
why you gentlemen should be absolutely certain that the uncertainty
is minimised, by getting about and communicating all the time?
Is that not vital?
(Mr Storey) Yes, I agree. I am out
and about and trying to get round and talking to people for that
very reason. It takes time to do this. It is a large area to cover,
but, I agree, we should be able to communicate on it. On the first
day I was in the business I invited people from all the regions
to come into the headquarters and I talked to all the staff in
the headquarters in three sessions during the day. I gave them
thoughts on how I would be running the business. I went through
how I communicated. I told anyone that wished to do so to telephone
me and if I was in the office I would talk to them and I would
be round to visit as quick as I could. I had a telephone call
just this week from one of the chaps in Oban, which is under the
threat of closure, saying to me, "I have rung you because
you said I could do so. Will you talk to me?" I did. He was
expressing his concern and I said I would do whatever I can.
85. That is wonderful. You are an executive
type with a tremendous record and I have every sympathy with you
and I think it is a wonder example to give. Is it not just as
important, as well as your telephone line always being open, that
somehow your colleagues, starting with Mr Astbury, I am sure he
does this, at the next tier down and the next tier down at regional
level doing precisely what you are setting an example of doing
from the word go?
(Mr Storey) That is correct. There
should be lines of communication all the way up and down the system.
86. There is a lot of change and I can imagine
just how uncertain people are. Perhaps you can sort one thing
out. Maybe I have stared at it in the report and just not seen
it. I read through this report and it took me to figure 12 on
page 17 before I could begin to work out how many officers you
had. On page 1, paragraph 3, we are told about the recommended
strength of 3,100 auxiliaries. We are told a little later on about
200 assistant watch officers coming to revolutionise the system
and 66 officers going. Actually, other than that vague indication
from the bar chart, today how many officers do you have? I could
not see it, C&AG, in the report. Perhaps I missed it.
(Mr Astbury) 544 and a half which
we have got because there are some part-time.
(Sir John Bourn) Figure 7 has got
the essential points.
87. That is the bar chart. That is where
I knew it was a little over 500 in 1996. That is all I had.
(Sir John Bourn) Yes, the actual
figure is better.
88. Can we talk about paragraph 2.24 and
the port and harbour authorities. The NAO believe there is scope
for better liaison. Do they have a point there? Is this just a
culture clash? Is it about a culture of doers and performers,
which the coastguard service undoubtedly is and I have every admiration
for it, and a culture of administers and port and harbour authorities
or is there more to it? Have they not got a point when they suggest
that you should be more familiar with what their facilities are?
(Mr Storey) Yes, that is correct
and there is something in place to start to do just that now.
89. What?
(Mr Storey) Communication, meetings
with the harbour authorities and talking to them who are setting
up search and rescue plans, pollution plans and there will be
meetings and every harbour has got to submit to us a plan for
approval and there will be communication in that way to agree
the plans in the harbours. Some of the harbour authorities are
very protective of their area and they do not think we should
be involved in the discussions on that. The search and rescue
committee meetings are where we will be doing things like that
and we will be communicating closer.
90. Forgive me for saying this because you
are a most accomplished executive, but do make sure everybody
keeps up with you. I understand entirely what you are saying.
Can we go to the map on figure 11 that has already been alluded
to and can we look at the top end of Scotland because perhaps
you can tell me how many of the incidents you respond to are connected
with off-shore operators?
(Mr Astbury) In Aberdeen we get
quite a lot false alerts from operators because we want them to
tell us sooner rather than later.
91. What about actual need?
(Mr Astbury) Very few, a very low
percentage.
92. Because they are well equipped themselves
and well trained?
(Mr Astbury) Yes.
93. I am delighted to hear it. I hope you
will bear in mind, however, that the off-shore oil map is changing
and when we talk about west of Shetlands we are talking about
different seas, we are talking about further off-shore, we are
talking about in the future a lot more floating platforms with
all the technical and marine difficulties that that implies. I
just hope that in your reorganisation you have got the back up
to take care of it. Is that point taken on board?
(Mr Storey) Yes.
(Mr Astbury) We have actually had
in place for the past nine years an off-shore industry liaison
team dedicated to keeping the coastguard in touch with developments.
94. That is excellent. Can we move on to
your auxiliaries. It seems to me there may be a lot that you can
learn from other emergency services. You have got special constables
in the police, you have got the 15,000 plus retained fire fighters
in the fire service in England and Wales and more, I dare say,
in Scotland. Have you compared notes with them about how to retain
and how to incentivise auxiliaries?
(Mr Astbury) Yes. Being part of
a local community, our coastguards liaise regularly with the fire,
police and ambulance and in some cases we have co-located some
of our coastal response team units with them because they are
in the best places to respond.
95. One fire service has suggested having
co-ordinating sessions to simulate an incident. Will you do more
of that?
(Mr Astbury) Yes. We have an on-going
liaison with all the other emergency services, particularly those
ones on the coast, not only in the development of emergency plans
but in day-to-day liaison for the simple bread and butter incidents
on the coast. It is very important.
96. Would it not be the case, though, that
the ripple effect would be that the auxiliaries would think, "Well,
if they are going to close stations and we volunteered for this
service, it is all a bit demoralising"? Have you not got
a problem in coping with change there when you close stations?
It is not just your officers, it is your auxiliaries, is it not?
(Mr Storey) Yes, but you must communicate
with the people correctly. We have just started to set up a system,
first of all on paper, of communication with the coastguard, a
newsletter. The second one is now just about to go out. So we
are trying to improve the communication links. Where you cannot
do it face to face you do it by paper.
Mr Wardle: Mr Storey and Mr Astbury,
Mr Chairman, I repeat what I said at the beginning, ie, from what
one can pick off this NAO Report there is a lot of praise due
for the way in which you operate but some real reservations about
the lack of communications. I hope everything you have told us
about how communications will be improved, Mr Storey, will come
to pass because I think that is the one obvious gap. Thank you,
Chairman.
Mr Leslie
97. Mr Storey, can I ask whether you agree
with the contents of the NAO Report and whether you sanctioned
what was written in there?
(Mr Storey) In principle, yes.
98. So you did go through it with the National
Audit Office and agree it?
(Mr Storey) No, I have not been
through it with the National Audit Office, only my people.
99. Can I ask the C&AG whether that
is normal practice. My understanding was that witnesses tended
to have previously agreed the contents of the report.
(Sir John Bourn) It was agreed with
Mr Storey's predecessor. Mr Storey took up post a relatively short
time ago.
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