Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80
- 99)
WEDNESDAY 29 JULY 1998
THE BARONESS
BLACKSTONE AND
MRS IMOGEN
WILDE
Chairman
80. Minister, Mrs Wilde, thank you very much
indeed for coming to see us this afternoon. We had hoped, as I
think you know, to see the Minister of Science in the Commons
and yourself on education and employment in the same afternoon,
but as a result of the changes in Government we were not sure
who the Minister for Science was—we are still not entirely
sure, though we have heard rumours—so we did not have the
Minister before you. We are sorry that we are starting a little
late with you. We would like to question you about the Funding
Council support for research and I will say at the outset, on
behalf of the Committee, that this Committee is delighted with
the funding that has come from the Government for science in the
Comprehensive Spending Review. I do not think any of us would
say that we consider it to be the end of our pressure for greater
funding for science, but it has been a significant response to
what this Committee and others have been doing for science and
I think it would be churlish to say anything other than we are
grateful to see that science is recognised in the way that it
has been. Could I ask you specifically what additional sums for
research funding via the Higher Education Funding Council for
England your Department was hoping to achieve from the Comprehensive
Spending Review?
(Baroness Blackstone) Can I just begin
by thanking you for inviting me and to let you know that the new
Minister for Science is in fact Lord Sainsbury who is one of my
colleagues in the House of Lords. I think until yesterday he was
sunning himself in Spain and I think he has come back on a plane
today and only just arrived in the country, but I did speak to
him very briefly before coming here and I know he is hugely looking
forward to his new job.
81. Thank you very much indeed. That is the
rumour we had heard, but even if we had had it confirmed, we still
think it would have been less than fair to have invited him at
five minutes notice, still with his open neck shirt, to come and
talk to this Committee.
(Baroness Blackstone) When I suggested he might like
to come with me I think he felt that what you have just said was
true. The Government is putting in an additional £300 million
over the next three years, which comes out of the Comprehensive
Spending Review, for research on universities to be paid through
the Higher Education Funding Council. We certainly think that
this is a good outcome of the review, a good deal for universities
on top of the £1.1 billion that comes through OST and the
Wellcome Trust contribution making a total of £1.4 billion.
82. Had you hoped for much more than that in
your submissions?
(Baroness Blackstone) No. I think that seemed to us
to be a reasonable contribution through HEFCE—
83. Close to what you were hoping for?
(Baroness Blackstone)—taking into account the
very substantial sums coming via OST.
84. We understand that you have considered it
appropriate to ringfence £50 million of this extra money
for research, is that correct? What type of research is that ringfence
for?
(Baroness Blackstone) The other preliminary remark
that I ought to make to you is in some senses the timing of this
particular session is a difficult one for us because I am not
able to give you a great deal more information than we have made
public already, and I am very sorry about that. We have not yet
had the kind of detailed discussions we need to have with the
Higher Education Funding Council before we decide exactly how
this money ought to be allocated. We normally send a letter of
guidance to the Funding Council in November which gives us a little
time to discuss it. As yet, we do not have firm views as to how
this should be spent.
85. So if I were to ask you if you would be
using the existing mechanism for distribution and allocation that
would still be premature, would it?
(Baroness Blackstone) If you mean by the existing
mechanism for distribution and allocation that it will go via
the Funding Council and will probably be bid for by the universities,
as is most capital and infrastructure funding, you would be correct.
86. What about selectivity, do you intend to
change any of the ground rules or methods of applying selectivity?
(Baroness Blackstone) We do not intend to change any
of the ground rules as far as the RAE is concerned, although as
you will know the Higher Education Funding Council has had extensive
discussion and consultation on this with the universities and
is going to have a longer term review which will look at that.
We discussed this the last time I came and talked to the Committee.
Dr Gibson
87. Traditionally vice chancellors have not
had to spend "T" money on "T" and "R"
money on "R", is that going to change?
(Baroness Blackstone) We are, of course, anxious to
make sure that "R" money is spent on "R",
as I am sure this Committee would want us to. At the same time
I think it is important that we should not be too intrusive in
terms of universities' freedom to spend their money sensibly.
We certainly would not want from Central Government, from my Department,
to lay down, for example, on what subjects this money ought to
be spent or on what kinds of projects, that would be wholly inappropriate.
It is a matter for the Funding Council to negotiate with the universities
a sensible set of rules and requirements about how money they
allocate is spent, whether on the teaching side or on the research
side. I believe it is important that spending on research should
be as transparent as possible.
Mr Beard
88. In that context, would the Council be free
to earmark or to suggest to universities a proportion of the extra
£300 million that should be spent on research? Would that
be possible?
(Baroness Blackstone) The DfEE extra funding is £300
million over the three year period including £50 million
in the first year and that is all for research. Next year the
total additional funding going to universities will be £280
million of which £50 million is for research. In guidance
that we issue to HEFCE we would of course expect that £50
million to be allocated to research.
Chairman
89. Just on that point. That £50 million
is a minimum. Supposing you found out that of the £280, £60
or £70 million went to research because that is the way the
universities have allocated the funds they received, would that
trouble you?
(Baroness Blackstone) I think it is up to universities
to decide in the final analysis how they want to allocate their
money but I would expect universities which are given, after all,
tranches of money designated as either "R" or "T"
for them to want to use the money that is designated for teaching
for teaching. I think it would be right and proper for them to
do that.
Mr Beard
90. In the past they have been quite free to
change it.
(Baroness Blackstone) Well, within limits. I do not
think that vice chancellors would want to operate in a fast and
loose way with money that is allocated by the Higher Education
Funding Council designated for research and teaching.
Dr Gibson
91. There are some unscrupulous ones.
(Baroness Blackstone) Their total grant, of course,
comes as a total.
Mr Beard
92. When we were taking evidence earlier on
the Dearing Report we heard various stories of the adequacy of
university costing systems to be able to fully control these research
spendings. Have you in mind any Government initiative to improve
these methods?
(Baroness Blackstone) There is a review being carried
out at the moment on costing and pricing in the universities,
I am not sure when that is due to report. Do you know?
(Mrs Wilde) It is running over three years starting
in 1998-99 and the Funding Council are putting £2.8 million
into this. It is designed to improve costing and pricing at higher
education institutions.
93. Is this the same one as is being co-ordinated
by the Committee of Vice Chancellors and Principals?
(Mrs Wilde) It involves the funding councils, the
Committee of Vice Chancellors and Principals and other partners.
It is a joint study, yes.
94. Is the intention to have a unified system
more or less through the universities rather than one hundred
different systems?
(Mrs Wilde) It is designed to identify good practice
and to offer guidance to institutions on how to cost and price
work most effectively.
95. Will the DfEE be doing anything to try to
ensure that the practices do not vary so much as to cause confusion
between external sponsors of that research?
(Mrs Wilde) I think there is general agreement now
on the desirability of establishing transparent, clearly recognised
practices for costing and pricing. I would expect the review to
lead to recommendations which universities would want to follow.
96. It will also be seen as between capital
and revenue so that we do not build up this deficit in infrastructure
that the present allocation is compensating for at present?
(Mrs Wilde) Yes, I would expect it to.
Dr Turner
97. The Research Council money, extra money,
is expected to be concentrated on priority areas. Is there any
such expectation on yourselves as a Funding Council to do likewise
with your extra funds or will you simply be working on the basis
of the existing Research Assessment Exercise without directing
the money per se to given subject areas?
(Baroness Blackstone) We certainly will not direct
money per se to particular subject areas. Where there is
a bidding process to the Funding Council there will be a process
of assessing on the basis of merit where the money should go and
that would be particularly true of capital projects. As far as
more general "R" funding is concerned, of course that
is done via the RAE.
98. Does it follow from that that vice chancellors
will have the same freedom as they have now to allocate the research
funds from their block grants within their institutions?
(Baroness Blackstone) We have no plans to change the
arrangements at present.
99. So you can see no reason why the changes
as far as you are concerned should have any implications for the
diversity of the British science base?
(Baroness Blackstone) No, I do not see why they should
have any implications whatsoever.
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