PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE RELATING
TO
THE REPORT
WEDNESDAY 18 FEBRUARY 1998
Members present:
Mr Archy Kirkwood, in the Chair
| Ms Karen Buck | Mr Chris Pond
|
| Mr Nick Gibb | Mr Frank Roy
|
| Mr Paul Goggins | Ms Gisela Stuart
|
| Ms Patricia Hewitt |
Mr Malcolm Wicks |
The Committee deliberated.
Resolved, That the Committee
inquire into the place of the Disability Living Allowance in the
Government's strategy for sick and disabled people, and in particular
the operation of the Benefit Integrity Project insofar as it affects
recipients of Disability Living Allowance.
[Adjourned till Wednesday 25 February at half-past
Ten o'clock.
WEDNESDAY 18 MARCH 1998
Members present:
Mr Archy Kirkwood, in the Chair
| Ms Karen Buck | Mr Edward Leigh
|
| Mr Paul Goggins | Mr Chris Pond
|
| Ms Patricia Hewitt |
Mr Frank Roy |
| Miss Julie Kirkbride |
Mr Malcolm Wicks |
The Committee deliberated.
Professor Rodney Grahame, Chairman, Miss Susan Knibbs,
Vice-Chair, Mrs Nicole Davoud OBE and Dr John Hunter, Disability
Living Allowance Advisory Board, examined.
[Adjourned till Wednesday 25 March at half-past
Ten o'clock.
WEDNESDAY 25 MARCH 1998
Members present:
Mr Archy Kirkwood, in the Chair
| Ms Karen Buck | Mr Edward Leigh
|
| Mr Nick Gibb | Mr Frank Roy
|
| Mr Paul Goggins | Mr Malcolm Wicks
|
| Miss Julie Kirkbride |
|
The Committee deliberated.
Professor Ian Bruce, Royal National Institute for
the Blind, Ms Lorna Reith, Disability Alliance, and Mr Richard
Wood, British Council of Disabled People, Disability Benefits
Consortium, examined.
Mrs Lynne Malekmian, Mrs Lesley Burton and Mr James
McDonald, examined.
[Adjourned till Wednesday 1 April at half-past
Ten o'clock.
WEDNESDAY 1 APRIL 1998
Members present:
Mr Archy Kirkwood, in the Chair
| Ms Karen Buck | Mr Chris Pond
|
| Mr Nick Gibb | Mr Frank Roy
|
| Ms Paul Goggins | Ms Gisela Stuart
|
| Ms Patricia Hewitt |
Mr Malcolm Wicks |
| Mr Edward Leigh |
|
The Committee deliberated.
Mr John Lutton, Benefits Agency Director of Field
Operations North (Operational Director with responsibility for
DLA Unit), Ms Ursula Brennan, Policy Director with Special Responsibility
for Disability, Sickness and Carer Benefits and Co-ordinator of
Departmental Anti-fraud Policy, and Mr Bill Farrell, Benefits
Agency Project Manager, Benefit Integrity Project, Department
of Social Security, examined.
[Adjourned till Tuesday 7 April at a quarter to Four
o'clock.
TUESDAY 7 APRIL 1998
Members present:
Mr Archy Kirkwood, in the Chair
| Mr Nick Gibb | Mr Chris Pond
|
| Mr Paul Goggins | Mr Frank Roy
|
| Ms Patricia Hewitt |
Ms Gisela Stuart |
| Mr Edward Leigh | Mr Malcolm Wicks
|
The Committee deliberated.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham, Parliamentary Under Secretary
of State (Lords), Department of Social Security, a Member of the
House of Lords, attending by leave of that House, examined; Ms
Ursula Brennan, Director with Special Responsibility for Disability,
Sickness and Carer Benefits and Co-ordinator of Departmental Anti-fraud
Policy, Department of Social Security, further examined; and Ms
Claire Edwards, Disability Living Allowance Policy Manager, Department
of Social Security, examined.
[Adjourned till to-morrow at half-past Ten o'clock.
WEDNESDAY 13 MAY 1998
Members present:
Mr Archy Kirkwood, in the Chair
| Ms Karen Buck | Mr Edward Leigh
|
| Mr Nick Gibb | Mr Chris Pond
|
| Mr Paul Goggins | Mr Frank Roy
|
| Ms Patricia Hewitt |
Ms Gisela Stuart |
| Miss Julie Kirkbride |
Mr Malcolm Wicks |
The Committee deliberated.
Draft Report (Disability Living Allowance), proposed
by the Chairman, brought up and read.
Ordered, That the draft
Report be read a second time, paragraph by paragraph.
Paragraphs 1 to 10 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 11 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 12 and 13 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 14 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 15 to 18 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 19 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 20 and 21 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 22 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraph 23 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 24 read as follows:
The issue of taxing DLA remained unresolved in the
Welfare Reform Green Paper. According to the disability organisations,
taxation would negate the role of DLA as an extra costs benefit.
The Minister stated that there were two opposing views on taxation:
"One is that DLA is producing a level playing
field between those who have a disability and those who do not.
In part it cannot do it entirely but it makes a contribution to
a more level playing field at every income level irrespective
of whether you are on £60 a week or £600 a week. The
other argument is if you are dealing with financial resources
and a growing number of elderly people who form the majority of
disabled people then there is also a second consideration of whether
you should target what help you have on those who are most severely
disabled and those in financial need. That is the conflicting
argument. Means testing has been ruled out and I am delighted
that it has been ruled out. Taxation has not been ruled out, not
that it has been ruled in either, but there is an honourable debate
still to be had on that subject. At the end of the day I cannot
take you any further than saying obviously this is a matter for
the Chancellor".
In our view, taxation of DLA would only be acceptable
if any savings were earmarked to improve DLA.
Amendment proposed, in line 13, to leave out from
the word "Chancellor" to the end of the paragraph and
insert the words "In our view, taxation of DLA should be
considered only in the context of a full review of the purpose
and level of the benefit." — (Ms Patricia Hewitt.)
Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment, to
leave out from "view" to the end of the proposed Amendment
and insert the words "DLA should not be taxed".—
(Mr Edward Leigh.)
Question put, That the Amendment be made to the proposed
Amendment.
The Committee divided.
| Ayes, 3 | Noes, 7
|
| Mr Nick Gibb | Ms Karen Buck
|
| Miss Julie Kirkbride |
Mr Paul Goggins |
| Mr Edward Leigh | Ms Patricia Hewitt
|
| Mr Chris Pond
|
| Mr Frank Roy
|
| Ms Gisela Stuart
|
| Mr Malcolm Wicks
|
Question put, That the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
| Ayes, 7 | Noes, 3
|
| Ms Karen Buck | Mr Nick Gibb
|
| Mr Paul Goggins | Miss Julie Kirkbride
|
| Ms Patricia Hewitt |
Mr Edward Leigh |
| Mr Chris Pond |
|
| Mr Frank Roy |
|
| Ms Gisela Stuart |
|
| Mr Malcolm Wicks |
|
Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.
Paragraphs 25 to 28 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 29 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 30 to 33 read and agreed to.
Paragraphs 34 to 36 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraph 37 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 38 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 39 and 40 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 41 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 42 to 47 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 48 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraph 49 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 50 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraph 51 read and agreed to.
Paragraphs 52 and 53 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraph 54 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 55 read and agreed to.
Paragraphs 56 and 57 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 58 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 59 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 60 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraph 61 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 62 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraph 63 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 64 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 65 and 66 read and agreed to.
Paragraphs 67 and 68 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraph 69 read and agreed to.
Paragraphs 70 and 71 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 72 to 77 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 78 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 79 and 80 read as follows:
79. As we have already discussed, the failure to
consult DLAAB about the DLA Benefit Review or BIP was a serious
error of judgement by the Department. It seems extraordinary that
an Advisory Board established by statute to advise on a particular
benefit should not have been consulted about major initiatives
relating to that benefit.
80. The annual budget of DLAAB is £112,000,
of which £110,000 is for Board members' fees and expenses
and £2,000 for general expenses. The administrative costs
of the Board, including a five person secretariat, are part of
the budget for the DSS Policy Group. The lack of transparency
over the cost of the Board's operations has contributed to its
obscurity and perceived lack of independence. We recommend that
DLAAB should be allocated its own separate annual budget to be
audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General and reported upon
annually to Parliament. While there may be substantial advantages
in the DLAAB secretariat being composed of DSS officials on secondment,
we recommend that DLAAB should appoint its own staff. The clearest
expression of independence will be for DLAAB to move to premises
other than the DSS Headquarters. We recommend that DLAAB should
consider moving to new premises; and that before it does so a
study should be commissioned from independent consultants on the
costs and benefits of DLAAB being located outside London. At present
the DLAAB Annual Report is presented to the Secretary of State.
In order further to underline the Board's independence and accountability,
we recommend that the legislation should be amended at the earliest
suitable opportunity to require the DLAAB Annual Report to be
laid formally before Parliament. In any event, it is our intention
as a Select Committee to maintain regular contact with DLAAB.
Paragraphs disagreed to.
Paragraphs 81 to 86 (now paragraphs 79 to 84) read
and agreed to.
Paragraph 87 (now paragraph 85) read, amended and
agreed to.
Resolved, That the Report
be the Fourth Report of the Committee to the House.
Ordered, That the Chairman
do make the Report to the House.
Ordered, That the provisions
of Standing Order No. 134 (Select committees(reports)) be applied
to the Report.
Several Papers were ordered to be appended to the
Minutes of Evidence.
Ordered, That the Appendices
to the Minutes of Evidence taken before the Committee be reported
to the House.-(The Chairman.)
Several memoranda were ordered to be reported to
the House.
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