Examination of Witnesses (Questions 200
- 219)
MONDAY 23 FEBRUARY 1998
MR LAURENCE
BERNTHAL, MS
DAWN BLAKE
and MR JOHN
COLLIN
Mr Thomas
200. Mr Chairman, I would like to give both
gentlemen a rest and ask Ms Dawn Blake a question following her
letter, which is included in your submission to us. It is her
letter to Alison Clements of Retail Week.
(Ms Blake) The letter was actually from Laurence I
have to say.
(Mr Bernthal) It was me.
201. I will direct the question to you, Ms Blake.
It is a letter, is it not, presumably to the editor of Retail
Week? It is for inclusion in their letters page.
(Ms Blake) That is right, yes.
202. Right. I am quite drawn by the first paragraph
where you refer to the beef on the bone restriction which was
introduced by the Government in December last year.
(Ms Blake) I think this actually refers to what we
saw as a backlash in the media. Basically rather than supporting
the hysteria that surrounded many of the food scares that have
gone on in the last couple of years. This jumping on the bandwagon
and sensationalising, which I am afraid they do tend to do because
it makes a better story: There seemed to be this feeling, certainly
from my point of view, in the British media this time that we
had almost gone too far with bone in beef and that we were getting
a little bit fed up with it really and it was almost a case of
"we really need to take a long, hard look at what is safe
to eat now and are we going too far?" Does that answer your
question?
203. You support the ban there, do you not,
on beef on the bone? You refer to the fact that you—
(Ms Blake) It is more the reaction, I think, of the
media to it, as opposed to any specific comment on bone in beef.
We have obviously complied with the current legislation.
204. You withdrew beef on the bone?
(Ms Blake) Yes, we have.
205. You said: "We took this action firm
in the belief that this would be reassuring to our customers and
appease any fears regarding the safety of beef." Then you
were quite surprised to learn that the media reaction was that
the Government had gone completely off the handle and had over-reacted.
You do not share that view, do you?
(Ms Blake) I think there are two elements to this.
One, as a responsible retailer we obviously have to respond to
any directives that are given to us, whilst, on the other hand,
keeping our finger on the pulse of public opinion. This really
was just noticing that certainly in terms of the British media
the response had not been as we would usually expect to some kind
of food scare. There are two elements to it. One is as a responsible
retailer to a directive and one is trying to gauge what the public
opinion is. Is that not clear for you? You look puzzled.
Mr Thomas: I hear what you say. I simply draw
attention to it.
Ms Lawrence
206. Can I just go back before we pass out of
this area and discuss labelling. You did mention the efforts that
the Co-op are making to label your meat. One of the criticisms
I have come across is that certain supermarkets may label in areas
where there is a strong farming lobby where there has been concern
because of the effect on the local economy but that may not be
the standard practice across the whole of the stores. Can you
confirm firstly that it is standard practice across all of your
stores in Wales and, bearing in mind that you are part of a larger
organisation, the same practice about labelling is carried out
through all the stores throughout the UK that you are aware of?
(Ms Blake) Can I just stop you there. What do you
mean that we are part of a "larger organisation"?
207. The Co-operative Retail Services generally.
(Ms Blake) You are not including CWS and the other
societies?
208. No, I am talking about the retail element.
(Mr Bernthal) Within the CRS we do not discriminate
in any one particular area, that is our national policy. We will
mark our product whether it be in Anglesey or Dover, it will be
marked the same.
Ms Lawrence: Thank you
Mr Caton
209. Mr Bernthal, still on procurement and labelling.
With your Farm Selected assurance scheme, how does your tracing
system work?
(Mr Bernthal) Are you familiar with the FABBL scheme?
210. You outline it.
(Mr Bernthal) Essentially any product that comes into
our stores, and I use the word "primal", if I just give
a brief meaning of that, it is a big bit of meat, a primal, it
will carry on-case codes so we can follow that product back to
the processor. Let us, for example, use Sutcliffe's. Sutcliffe's
records will then go back to the abattoir and the abattoir records
will be available for inspection from the Meat and Livestock Commission
which will say which farms they have come from and from that record
you can then consult the database as to the FABBL membership number
of the farm and if you require to look at the farmer's records
you go back to the farm. I think it would be fair to say within
John's set-up that John has gone one stage further for another
processor. Is it all right to say that?
(Mr Collin) Yes.
(Mr Bernthal) For a rather large processor. John has
in many cases traced the traceability back far enough, which is
very, very important.
211. That is for that particular plant?
(Mr Bernthal) That is right.
212. In your written evidence you said: "We
have developed systems that enable us to be confident of the quality
and traceability of our product".
(Mr Bernthal) We have developed those in partnership
with the Meat and Livestock Commission under the FABBL scheme
and with schemes that any of our processors have in place. We
have worked in partnership with everybody rather than us being
dictatorial and saying "that is our scheme". We have
worked together with everybody.
Ms Lawrence
213. Is that traceability available to the end
consumer if they request it?
(Mr Bernthal) If they request it? For each individual
meat pack unfortunately there are not the systems available at
the moment to take one individual meat pack back to supply. If,
however, a consumer requested for us to test our system, to have
a look at it, and it is an open window, we would not have a problem
with that. We would say that meat delivered into this store has
come from this series of farmers. That would not be a problem
to us.
214. There would not be a charge to the consumer
for requesting such information?
(Mr Bernthal) I think it would be rather hard-faced
of me to want to charge the consumer for that really.
215. We have a precedent.
(Mr Bernthal) If they want to pay me for doing it
I would welcome the money!
Chairman
216. Does anybody routinely check that?
(Mr Bernthal) Do you want to come in on this, John?
(Mr Collin) On traceability the technology is not
available at the moment to get traceability from the retail plant
back to the farm but I believe by the end of the year that will
be available. On the traceability from our company's point of
view, with cattle we trace it back to the individual animal and
on lambs we trace it back to the farm. Lots of people talk about
traceability in the industry and that usually means it could be
one, it could be 20 farms because they take them in a batch that
goes into the processing plant. With lambs we get the list of
farms they come from with each delivery and we give that particular
farm a batch so we can actually trace it back to the individual
farms on lambs. On cattle it is back to the individual animal.
(Mr Bernthal) If I can just come in on the point you
asked, does anybody test it? Yes, they do. We have quality technicians
who will test the rigour of the system, look at records, look
at processes, and look at all the relevant paperwork. Indeed,
I check it as well. When I am out at a processing plant or one
of our stores I will obtain the case end label and I will say
"tell me the story". I test it as well.
Mr Jones
217. Looking at your evidence again in paragraph
2.25 you refer to your sponsorship schemes, for example the carcass
competition, and you refer to your partners in these sponsorships.
Could you tell us a little bit more about that? How do they work?
How might they help the industry in Wales?
(Mr Bernthal) I think this was one of the babies of
John and myself. Coming out of March 20—I seem to labour
the date of March 20—between John and a processor in the
Midlands, John Dawkins of Congerstone who is a well-known processor
of meat, we believed that the farming community had their chins
on the floor at that stage. Indeed, we all had our chins on the
floor. We could not see where the next sale of beef was coming
from essentially. I do not know how we actually came about it
but we said we would do a carcass competition. Farmers from the
Meadow Valley Livestock Co-operative were invited to submit cattle
for which we would have a competition for the best carcass as
per any carcass competition, champion in show, champion steer,
champion heifer, etc., etc. When we did that one I believe there
were something like 72 entrants. The one we did at the end of
last year had something like 94 beasts submitted, all very much
to a very, very high standard. In fact, I said at the completion
of it that it was a testament to the British beef industry. I
had to say that because I was the judge as well and I wanted to
get out of there without being lynched! How can they help the
Welsh? I think there is potential there to do one locally perhaps.
The invitation is open.
218. We saw your reference in particular to
the Bank of Wales you see and wondered how they could help.
(Mr Collin) They are our bankers actually so I got
them to sponsor one of the categories.
Mr Jones: Okay, thank you.
Mr Livsey
219. I wonder if you could tell us what types
of investment and infrastructure you are planning and how do you
see this affecting local employment? You have already mentioned
the Pontardawe plant. Do you foresee any other investment taking
place?
(Mr Bernthal) Indeed. I failed to say, and that was
very remiss of me, that we have two plants within Wales. One is
obviously Sutcliffe's and John has two plants of his own. We have
another retail meat packing plant and that is Dawn Pac at Cross
Hands. They are making a significant investment for us as a retail
packing plant. Also beyond that the CRS has investment programmes.
We have recently finished the refurbishment of our store at Pyle
and that has transformed that store into a store that I would
suggest is better than any of our competitors. I am sure they
might want some discussions on that. That is better than anybody
else's. We have a new store at Gurnos and I was going to say at
Ystradgynlais but, I am sorry, my pronunciation is probably so
far off the target, I do apologise. We are refurbishing stores
throughout Wales. We are refurbishing stores particularly where
there was no meat previously sold. Part of our investment to increase
our meat sales is to put in meat where it has never previously
had a presence. That is some of our, if you like, tangible investment.
We are also at the moment investing quite significantly in information
technology. One area where we are sadly lagging behind our competitors
is in the use of electronic point of sale, the EPOS till. We are
endeavouring, and our plan is, to have EPOS in all 500 stores
by the middle of this year. That is the largest EPOS project,
I am reliably informed, to take place. That is a significant investment.
I think it is perhaps appropriate as well to suggest that as part
of our strategy for taking fresh meat sales forward we are investing
in promotional price, we are cutting prices for promotional activity
and we are doing that on a regular basis, hopefully to stimulate
business. We backed that up at Christmas by television advertising
and I am sure as everybody can understand television advertising
does not come cheaply. Those are perhaps different forms of investment
that we are making within the Co-operative.
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