Examination of Witnesses (Questions 780
- 799)
TUESDAY 21 APRIL 1998
MR L DAVID
WALKER, MISS
JILL ARDAGH
and MR KEITH
BROWN
Mr Thomas
780. I am surprised you cannot, with respect,
give any sort of indication as to what proportion of the beef
used in 1996 was UK beef?
(Mr Walker) You can do it another way
but it is purely guess work.
781. What is that?
(Mr Walker) If I say that the beef figure
down there of 23 per cent was imported it then becomes mathematics.
It is all what is opinion taken from our members. You cannot come
before this Committee unless you have a lean livestock statistic
and give it. You can say of manufacturing beef in the United Kingdom
23 per cent is imported, but whether that is imported from Ireland—you
must always bear in mind the amount of Irish beef that comes in—Botswana
or under the Hilton scheme from the United States of America or
from Australia, New Zealand and South America—
782. 23 per cent is imported?
(Mr Walker) Yes.
783. You know that. What is the source of that
information?
(Mr Walker) Knowledge. Knowledge gained.
I am also a commissioner of the MLC by the way.
784. In fact we do know, do we not, what proportion
is UK based?
(Mr Walker) Yes, but we have not got
it. Anything that is given to this Committee has got to be strong
enough to go to the annual abstracters statistics. To say that
we think that 23 per cent of the beef used in manufacturing is
imported is one thing but that is opinion, it is not fact.
785. I am sorry to press you on this but it
is something which interests this inquiry a lot. We can make a
reasonable working assumption, if you like, that 77 per cent is
sourced from the UK?
(Mr Walker) You can make a reasonable
working assumption, that is your privilege, Sir.
786. Is that an assumption you would agree with?
(Mr Walker) It is an assumption I would
use, yes.
(Miss Ardagh) I think the problem with
import statistics is we have to guess what has gone into manufacturing
sometimes. You could say that imported boneless frozen meat is
likely to have gone into the manufacturing sector but it can be
very difficult to say definitely that has gone into the manufacturing
sector.
(Mr Walker) I do not want to get into
a lot of detail now but in the imports there is also all the meat
that has come in under some control and gone into the retail restaurant
trade. That has not gone anywhere near manufacturing but it is
very difficult to find those figures out.
787. Are you suggesting from Miss Ardagh's answer
that a disproportionate amount of the imported beef would go into
manufacturing than would otherwise be the case because of the
nature of the processes you are carrying out?
(Miss Ardagh) As I said, if you are looking
at import statistics and they relate to frozen boneless, there
is a strong chance they would come into the manufacturing sector
but we could not swear to it because, as David has said, it could
go into the catering sector, it could go into other places. It
is not tracked all the way through to the manufacturers' door.
It would be figures received through Customs if it has come from
third countries. As you know, within the EU the Intrastat system
is not nearly as reliable as it used to be, there is a big time
lag as well.
788. I do not wish to sound as if I am labouring
the point. 23 per cent is imported but that does not really help
us in so far as how much of that is used by not your members but
manufacturers.
(Miss Ardagh) Yes.
789. Is that correct?
(Mr Walker) Yes.
Mr Paterson
790. When importing for manufacturing which
do you think is the predominant decider, is it the price or is
it the fact that some manufacturing requires imported meat which
is over 13 months and has a different texture and structure?
(Mr Walker) I think it is the price.
791. It is the price?
(Mr Walker) I think it is the price.
792. You could produce the same product with
British beef if the price was right?
(Mr Walker) Yes, pre BSE you could. One
of the things that has never been really clearly understood by
people who are not involved in the industry, canning, you use
cow beef. In a lot of sausage making you use cow beef. Now you
do not use cow beef in canning terms because it is cheaper, you
need the strength.
793. That is what I am getting at.
(Mr Walker) If you are retorting to an
FO of six, the agitation in that can has got to be strong. If
you use steer and heifer beef for marbling it will just break
up in the can. There is a technical reason for using strong meat.
794. The current forequarters etc are going
to be under 30 months?
(Mr Walker) All under 30 months, all
steer and heifer beef and hence the canning industry in this country
has pretty well collapsed.
795. There is a technical reason?
(Mr Walker) There is a technical reason
for using strong cow meat, it is not a financial one.
Ms Lawrence
796. I am curious getting back to the point
you made about the demands of the supermarkets because when we
interviewed the supermarkets about the use of British versus imported
beef they said whilst they could control fresh meat they were
purchasing they had no control over the manufacturers of processed
meat, where they purchased their meat. What you have said seems
to directly contradict that statement.
(Mr Walker) I contradict that statement
absolutely. I supply six major multiples and every one of them
tells me where that beef has to come from.
797. The supermarkets do have a considerable
amount of power and influence over your operations?
(Mr Walker) Absolutely.
(Mr Brown) Which is not the case with
our operation. The supermarkets we deal with do not specify the
origin of the meat.
798. Is that because they choose not to or because
you say this is my operation, this is my product, you either purchase
it or you do not?
(Mr Brown) No, no, it is quite the opposite
in fact. These days if you are manufacturing for any retailer
at all they usually have quite comprehensive audits of the premises
and they go up through everything you do including where you source
your raw materials from, what checks you have on raw material
sources. Certainly we are not dealing with the Asda's, Tesco's
in terms of own label products. Aldi and Liddel, to name two supermarkets
that we do deal with, do not insist that we source the meat from
any particular source. They want to make sure it is good quality,
they want to make sure that the product that we provide them with
is consistent but they do not say: "It has to come from this
source". There is a contradiction there, yes.
799. Presumably you are dealing with the major
suppliers, although Mr Brown says he is dealing with smaller ones.
Would you say your experience is different from Mr Brown's?
(Mr Walker) Yes. I think there is an
answer here which you are looking for, it is called own label.
If you label under the supermarket's label then you have to use
the beef that supermarket specifies.
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