Examination of Witnesses (Questions 800
- 819)
TUESDAY 21 APRIL 1998
MR L DAVID
WALKER, MISS
JILL ARDAGH
and MR KEITH
BROWN
800. If you have members of your organisation
who supply under their own brand, would they come under the same
sort of pressure from the supermarket perhaps?
(Mr Walker) I think they would.
(Miss Ardagh) Normally with own brand,
no. Keith produces under own brand.
(Mr Brown) The Peter's brand of products
that we produce we would put into many supermarkets under our
own branding. There is no pressure from those supermarkets to
say: "This is the source that you must use for your beef".
801. Could that be because those two supermarkets
concerned are continental based supermarkets?
(Mr Brown) We do put our own label products
into the major multiples as well. Regionally we do, we do not
do it nationally. Regionally in Wales most of the major multiples
will have Peter's products on the shelf. There is no pressure
from those multiples for the sourcing of those products.
802. That contradicts what they were saying
because they were saying they do ask but there is no response.
If they did ask what would your reaction be?
(Mr Brown) Put it this way, I had meetings
with the Farmers' Union, they came to site to see how we source
our meat and what we are doing to help their cause. I was able
to tell them at that time when they came to site we were using
British beef and that we will continue to use British beef for
the foreseeable future. They said: "What if a supermarket
came to you and said: `I want a product made with Welsh lamb or
Welsh beef' could you do it", I said yes, because it is part
and parcel of what we do. Regularly the retailers come to us and
say to us: "We like what you do here but we would like you
to do it a little bit different, can you change the receipe, can
you do this". Of course if we are going to satisfy these
people then we have to modify things as we go along. To date they
have not come to us and said "You must source your beef from
this source".
(Mr Walker) If you pack under their label
though it is their development people that come into the plant
and with your development people develop a product and a recipe,
they then agree the specification and then under their label they
tell you where that meat should come from, which abattoir boning
room.
803. Can I just ask a question on this specific
evidence. You say in 5(d) that "Manufacturers would like
to take advantage of beef from intervention stocks but are restricted
by the inadequate level of traceability and the ad hoc introduction
of new rules...". Can you expand on that for me?
(Mr Walker) When you buy from the Intervention
Board, if you can buy from the Intervention Board if you are allowed
to by your customer you notify the Intervention Board "I
want to buy 40 tonnes of boneless forequarters" and the Intervention
Board will then tell you which cold store to go to to collect
it. When you back your truck up to that cold store you do not
know who packed it until it is loaded on to your truck. Under
the present system of traceability and quality controls that does
not work any more. If you could go to the Intervention Board and
say: "I know that Bloggs boned 60 tonnes of meat last January
and it is in Reading cold store and I will buy that" it would
be far better but you cannot in terms of traceability and in terms
of quality control, in terms of the standard of boning, the fear
of foreign objects, you cannot in most cases now use intervention
beef.
Mr Caton
804. Moving on to lamb, you say that for reasons
of price, quality and availability, meat manufacturers largely
source lamb and mutton from Australia and New Zealand. Can you
quantify this, how much comes from Australia, how much comes from
New Zealand?
(Miss Ardagh) Again I do have to apologise
to the Committee. We do not have these frozen boneless figures
and there are figures for imports of frozen boneless lamb and
mutton and one can guess that some of that will come into the
meat manufacturing sector rather than fresh meat. We do not know
the split, for example, between manufacturing, catering, etc.
It is very difficult. I would say on the whole that meat manufacturers
tend to import their meat rather than use British. It does vary.
I have one member who says they were using quite a lot of British
sheep meat, mutton, but recently have turned to Spain because
of price, it was more competitive. It is true to say that most
of the supplies come from New Zealand, a small amount maybe from
Australia but more from New Zealand. I think you heard last week
from the frozen food producers about the industry over there which
has geared itself to supply meat manufacturers.
805. As you have just said, and I think you
said in your submission, the imported lamb comes in de-boned frozen
form. You said also that it has consistent conformity to visual
lean specifications. Do you believe it would be worthwhile for
British lamb producers to develop freezing facilities or is British
lamb simply not right for this market?
(Mr Walker) It is quantity, is it not?
I am drawing something out of my memory now, when you think of
lamb lines, I am thinking in Australia in particular, they are
killing the lambs, or they were in those days, killing over 3,000
lambs an hour. I do not think there is anybody in the United Kingdom
who can gear up a supply chain of that magnitude. If you see lambs
going down a chain line in Australia, the grading of the lamb
is important and the speed of the grading and the fact that the
lambs are all like peas in a pod. The difficulty of carrying out
the system, I do not think we can do it in the United Kingdom
because we have not got the numbers. That would be my honest answer
to you.
806. It could not be done on a smaller scale
or it could not be done at a suitable price on a smaller scale?
(Mr Walker) I do not think it is practical.
In any case if you are a farmer in Wales you pride yourself on
your quality. Now when all is said and done, if there was a New
Zealander in this room he would slaughter me for saying this,
once you freeze meat it is different. Once you fracture that cell
structure it is different. Therefore to keep the lamb fresh is
the best way of handling it. Hence the big problem we have got
is the amount of lamb that is going out to France to be killed
fresh in France and get a French stamp on it. They will not take
our dead lamb but they will take our live lamb and kill it and
it becomes French. That is a practical effect of the international
industry.
(Miss Ardagh) I think it is linked also
to the fact that the carcasses have to be split now because of
the SRM rules. The French do not want split carcasses, therefore
the lambs have to be slaughtered in France in order to keep the
carcasses intact. The freshness of the meat is involved in that
too.
(Mr Walker) We have submitted to other
departments and members of this House all we are doing now is
encouraging live export of the split lamb.
Mr Livsey
807. Would it be possible, Mr Walker, for us
to have the specifications for lamb that you have got? I assume
all your specifications of frozen lamb excludes all British lamb
in the meat manufacturing sector?
(Mr Walker) You would like copies of
the specification?
808. The actual specifications that you have
when you purchase lamb for manufacture?
(Mr Walker) Well, I do not.
809. Your Association?
(Miss Ardagh) I could give you an anonymous
spec if that would be acceptable for, say, a Shepherd's Pie. Is
that what you mean?
810. A whole range, if possible, please, and
also for beef. It seems to me one of the problems we are meeting
here is that the British and Welsh agricultural industry has not
addressed the actual specifications which you are demanding. Indeed
the freezing plant, for example, does not exist. We have a lot
of problems. There was a proposal in mid Wales to have a New Zealand
fortex plant about five years ago which would more or less take
two-thirds to three-quarters of the whole Welsh lamb crop. Would
that be a better solution as a supplier of a standard quality
product perhaps for your industry?
(Mr Walker) It would be provided the
lambs could be marketed from one source. I know what you are referring
to with that idea from about four years ago.
811. Yes.
(Mr Walker) If you bring all the lambs
to one source they have all got to be marketed from that source,
they are all owned at one place. You could not run an abattoir
like that as a co-operative and ten people own so many 100 lambs.
You are getting into a very large monopoly situation. The theory
of it yes, Sir, is right, you would get standard dressing, but
there are lots of problems with it. As to giving you specifications,
as Jill says, under no names, yes we could give you some examples
of specifications.
812. Thank you.
(Mr Walker) You will be amazed the detail
the specifications go into. My company for one customer when the
meat comes in it is already passed fit for human consumption,
it then goes through 44 quality control checks which are called
on by that customer which explains to the Committee the sort of
detail we get into.
813. You describe the Australian lamb as like
peas out of a pod, well obviously breed etc has a lot to do with
that. I am very interested to know whether these lambs are all
slaughtered at the same age and then put in for freezing? Are
you dealing with a standard product because they are 16 or 20
weeks old, whatever it is? Do you have that guarantee as well?
(Mr Walker) I am talking about something,
Sir, which I did many years ago. I worked in an Australian meat
plant, yes, they were all killed at the same age but I would not
give you any detail on that.
Mr Paterson
814. A final question on this: are you confident
that if the right freezing plant was set up, Welsh lamb would
meet your technical specifications? Could you produce the same
product you currently make with the New Zealand lamb?
(Miss Ardagh) I think the thing is we
would set the spec. For example, part of that would be—I
am saying what we have currently—frozen, de-boned, to a
visual lean specification so that the product is consistent and
available consistently as well.
(Mr Walker) Do not forget the most important
thing, the price.
(Miss Ardagh) The price obviously. We
have not mentioned the importance of visual lean specification.
(Mr Walker) You see one of the things
which is very important at the moment in the context of talking
to you is the Irish price. Ireland has got more beef than it has
ever had in its history and the Irish price is at least 10-14
pence a kilo less than the British price.
815. Back on lamb—
(Mr Walker) I am talking beef.
816. You do not see a technical reason why it
could not be done?
(Miss Ardagh) In Wales?
817. Yes?
(Miss Ardagh) It is difficult for us
to say, I think you would have to ask the Welsh farmer or abattoirs.
In a sense we would be setting the specification and they would
have to meet it, if you see my point.
(Mr Walker) It is more a question for
the Federation, is it not?
(Miss Ardagh) Yes, for the Federation
of Fresh Meat Wholesalers. Some of our members slaughter pigs
and have butchering and cutting operations there but on the whole
for beef and lamb our members receive the meat ready to use. They
do not do any additional work, maybe some trimming. Keith can
perhaps help me here. It is ready to use. They want meat which
is ready to use and conforms with the specification for the product
that they want to use.
(Mr Brown) A company like ours would
have no further butchery process incorporated into our business.
It has to come in, as Jill says, ready to use.
818. We have touched on exports already, how
significant was the export market?
(Miss Ardagh) Pre 1996?
(Mr Walker) In my company it was very
significant. At midnight I lost 27 per cent of my business. That
took me from 8,000 head of cattle a week down to 6,000 head of
cattle a week.
819. Would you be typical?
(Mr Walker) I think I would be. Anybody
deeply involved in export, yes.
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