Standing Committee E
Tuesday 5 May 1998
Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody
Except clauses 1, 7, 10, 11, 25, 27, 30, 75, 119 and 147
4.30 pm
The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Alistair Darling): I beg to move,
That, during proceedings on the Finance (No. 2) Bill (except Clauses 1, 7, 10, 11, 25, 27, 30, 75, 119 and 147) the Committee do meet, with effect from Tuesday 12th May, on Tuesdays and Thursdays at half-past Ten o'clock and half-past Four o'clock.
I welcome you to the Chair, Mrs Dunwoody. I understand that Mr. Butterfill is to be your co-Chairman. It will be strange for those of us who have sat on Finance Bill Committees for the past 10 years to see Mr. Butterfill condemned to silence except, of course, during appropriate interventions, because he used to be an active participant in our proceedings.
A large part of the Bill has been taken on the Floor of the House, although a great deal more remains to be scrutinised. I think that both sides of the House will agree to ensure that it is considered properly and in appropriate time. I have something of a non-executive role. My hon. Friends the Financial Secretary, the Economic Secretary and the Paymaster General will, I am sure, look after the Government's interests, as will my hon. Friends on the Back Benches, all of whom will be admirably supervised by our Whip.
The Committee should be able to make fairly substantial progress. The Government, as always, are open to any suggestions on how our legislation can be improved and made more user friendly for those who have to operate under the Finance Bill's provisions. This substantial measure is part of a continuing programme of major reforms to the financial system. When the Bill reaches the statute book, it will greatly benefit the country. I commend the sittings motion to the Committee.
Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory (Wells): I, too, welcome you to the Chair, Mrs. Dunwoody. We look forward to a constructive debate on what is a huge Finance Bill. Opposition Members approach the task with a sense of duty because it goes to the core of Parliament's function, which is to scrutinise the right of the Executive to relieve our constituents of their hard-earned money through the application of compulsory powers. We will be subjecting the clauses to detailed scrutiny, but only in a constructive spirit. I shall say more on that when we move on.
I want to stress that the size of the Bill will mean a long Committee stage. I know that all members of the Committee are braced for that, but we will not prolong the proceedings unduly. Its size--400 pages--is slightly surprising because it leaves out the entire welfare-to-work proposal, which formed a centrepiece of the Budget speech. That is evidently not ready yet, and we hear that the Government are in some trouble over the details. A large number of tax provisions are also not included in the Bill. They are to be dealt with subsequently by Treasury regulation, and I shall have more to say on that later.
I welcome the large number of Labour Members. I think that the Committee is even larger than last year's. I genuinely hope that they enter into the scrutiny process, which was not always the case last year. Those of my hon. Friends who sat on the Committee that considered the first Finance Bill of the current Session will remember that Labour members became known affectionately as the nodding donkeys because they had little to say, except to wave through some draconian tax-raising measures, and seemed reluctant to criticise the new Government. That was perhaps just about understandable in their first flush of youth last summer but, more than that, they seemed reluctant to stand up for some of their constituency interests in the face of a good many letters and representations that we know had been made to them. A year later, they may be somewhat more battle hardened and we look forward to their contributions, so that we can drop that sobriquet of nodding donkeys, which was always meant in good humour. We hope that they will become instead parliamentary tigers, anxious to fulfil their duties as parliamentarians, which is one of the reasons why they were elected in the first place.
Mr. Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham): On a point of order, Mrs. Dunwoody. Would it be in order for members of the Committee to remove their coats during the proceedings, as is customary?
The Chairman: Well, it is not customary. Indeed, Madam Speaker has views about that. But if hon. Members want to look as if they are on the dealing room floor, then they have my permission. It is a question of how Members of Parliament see themselves.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That, during proceedings on the Finance (No. 2) Bill (except Clauses 1, 7, 10, 11, 25, 27, 30, 75, 119 and 147), the Committee do meet, with effect from Tuesday 12th May, on Tuesdays and Thursdays at half-past Ten o'clock and half-past Four o'clock.
The Chairman: I have some business announcements to make before we proceed. Copies of the Ways and Means resolutions, on which the Bill is founded, are to be found in the Committee Room. In view of the resolutions of the House relating to the declaration of interests, right hon. and hon. Members are required to declare a relevant interest when they table amendments, as well as when they speak to them. Copies of the rules are available from the Clerk.
As usual, because of the quantity of paperwork on the Bill, green boxes are available to store papers between sittings. Members who make use of this facility should note that the filing cabinet that contains the boxes will be locked when the Committee is not sitting.
Finally, I should draw atttention to the fact that adequate notice must be given of amendments. Neither I nor my co-Chairman will as a rule call any starred amendments, including any starred amendments that are reached during an afternoon sitting of the Committee.
Mr. Darling: I beg to move,
That the Order in which proceedings in Standing Committee on the Finance (No. 2) Bill are to be taken shall be Clauses 2 to 6, Clauses 8 and 9, Clauses 12 to 16, Schedule 1, Clauses 17 to 20, Schedule 2, Clauses 21 to 24, Clause 26, Clauses 28 and 29, Clause 31, Schedule 3, Clauses 32 to 35, Schedule 4, Clauses 36 to 38, Schedule 5, Clauses 39 to 44, Schedule 6, Clauses 45 and 46, Schedule 7, Clauses 47 to 57, Schedule 8, Clause 58, Schedule 9, Clauses 59 to 61, Schedule 10, Clause 62, Schedule 11, Clauses 63 to 70, Schedule 12, Clauses 71 to 74, Schedule 13, Clause 139, Clauses 76 to 84, Schedule 14, Clauses 85 to 90, Schedule 15, Clauses 91 to 106, Schedule 16, Clauses 107 to 111, Schedule 17, Clauses 112 to 115, Schedules 18 and 19, Clauses 116 to 118, Schedules 20 and 21, Clauses 120 to 124, Clause 138, Clauses 125 to 129, Schedule 22, Clause 130, Schedule 23, Clauses 131 to 135, Schedule 24, Clauses 136 to 137, Clause 140, Schedule 25, Clauses 141 to 146, Clauses 148 to 155, Schedule 26, Clauses 156 to 161, New Clauses, New Schedules, Schedule 27.
The clauses are generally set out in order in which they appear in the Bill, except for clauses 138 and 139, which have been brought forward so that the clauses relating to venture capital trusts, enterprise investment scheme reforms and capital gains tax reforms may be considered together.
The welfare-to-work programme does not feature because it is not properly the province of the Finance Bill. On secondary legislation, we shall discuss many of the schedules attached to clauses but this Bill is no different from many others in that it provides for a fair amount of secondary legislation. Of course this is nothing like the longest Finance Bill with which a Committee has had to deal. That record is held by the Conservative party, and we have some way to go before we can even begin to compete. The order of consideration will enable the Committee to deal with the Bill in the appropriate and logical way. I therefore commend it to the Committee.
Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: We do not intend to oppose the motion but we wish to record some observations about it and, in so doing, about the Bill.
There is a distinction between schedules--which have always been an important part of any Finance Bill--and the use of secondary legislation and subsequent statutory instruments. Despite what the Chief Secretary just said, such use is more prevalent and more marked in this Bill. Work is being done outside the House on the quantity and type of that secondary legislation.
I should like to draw the Committee's attention to page 142 of the Bill, which is almost chosen at random. On that last page of the first volume, clause 158(4) refers to regulations and states:
``The power to make regulations under this section includes--
(a) power to impose charges to taxation;
(b) power to amend or repeal any enactment; and
(c) power to make such incidental, supplemental, consequential and transitional provision as appears to the Treasury to be appropriate.''
It would be difficult to draft that part of the clause more widely, and such provisions are scattered throughout this legislation.
Practitioners have already spotted that the use of secondary legislation is now more widespread and causing real difficulties. We all know that all legislation makes use of secondary legislation; indeed, administrative details are frequently better left to regulations. It is not desirable to return to primary legislation to change details or make specific taxes work better. In this Bill, however, whole chunks of tax legislation are treated in that way.
Outside bodies are asking why, at this stage, it is not known when corporation tax payments are to be made under the new system. We understand that some draft regulations have been made available--my hon. Friend the Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Mr. Gibb) had to raise the matter persistently on the Floor of the House before they were found in the Library. It would have been at least courteous-- if not required--to supply members of the Committee with those draft regulations, as they constitute an important and central part of the Bill. Perhaps I could ask through you, Mrs Dunwoody, for the draft regulations to be sent to hon. Members serving on the Committee.
It is beyond dispute that Henry VIII clauses, in various guises, are a strong and regular feature of this type of legislation. That is a matter that we will want to pursue. It might have been easier for the Committee if the regulations had been drawn together to be scrutinised over a one or two-week sitting. That is not a complaint--I understand that that would be difficult to do. As the regulations are scattered throughout the Bill, however, we will have to return to the matter as if it were a Wagnerian theme as we progress through the Bill.
It is characteristic of the arrogant way in which the Government treat the Committee and the House in general that--as was widely noticed--some proposals in the Budget speech did not form part of subsequent legislation or the Finance Bill. Conversely, some elements of the Finance Bill were not covered by the Budget speech. The reason for that is that the Budget speech was an exercise in political presentation and packaging, which did not always connect with the realities of the subsequent legislation.
|
