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Doncaster Council
4. Mr. Richard Allan (Sheffield, Hallam): If he will estimate the costs of the investigation by South Yorkshire police into allegations of wrong-doing by Doncaster councillors up to 1 November. [61091]
The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Paul Boateng): I understand from South Yorkshire police that the estimated cost of the investigation up to 1 November is £200,955, including £49,729 in accommodation and miscellaneous service costs.
Mr. Allan: I am mindful, Madam Speaker, of your proper rulings on sub judice matters, so I shall refer not to individual cases but to issues of general principle.
I assure the Minister that I wish to see allegations of corruption by councillors of any colour investigated with all possible vigour. Does he intend to apply to those convicted of council corruption his recently announced proposals to make criminals pay from the proceeds of crime? If so, the council tax payers of South Yorkshire, including those living in my constituency of Sheffield, Hallam, could be sure that whatever funds can be recovered are recovered to help to pay for our hard-pressed local police forces.
Mr. Boateng:
That would be entirely a matter for the courts, as and when the occasion arose, but, of course, all hon. Members would be concerned to ensure that corruption is treated as seriously as it deserves, from whatever source it comes.
Mr. John Greenway (Ryedale):
I welcome the hon. Gentleman to the Dispatch Box and look forward to working with him in the months ahead. Does he not realise that people in Yorkshire have more confidence in the police to clear up the mess than they have in the Labour party? They want to know how an already overstretched police service can be expected to cope with the four inquiries that it is undertaking and at the same time deal effectively with crime and disorder. Will he give the public a cast-iron reassurance that other policing priorities are not being neglected? Is not the real scandal
Mr. Boateng:
Although I thank the hon. Gentleman for kindly welcoming me to the Dispatch Box, I am sorry that he should choose so early on to descend into party politics on this matter. He knows that the investigations in Doncaster have extended across the party political divide. He and his colleagues are the last people to be able to point a finger at us about corruption. The allocation of resources to that investigation is entirely a matter for the chief constable. We have every confidence in his ability to ascertain what resources ought to be applied and to ensure that that is not done at the expense of the other law and order priorities in Yorkshire.
Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover):
Does my hon. Friend agree that we all deplore corruption in local government or anywhere that we find it, but that it ill becomes Tory Members to talk about Doncaster or anywhere else when they will not call on their old friend Lady Porter to pay back the £20-odd million that went missing in Westminster? Why do they not do so? Because she is a Tory and a friend of Lady Thatcher.
Mr. Boateng:
We have grown used to double standards from Conservative Members. The day that their spokesperson condemns Lady Porter from the Dispatch Box will be the day that they can give us lessons about corruption and abuse of power.
5. Mr. Christopher Fraser (Mid-Dorset and North Poole):
If he will make a statement on his spending plans for the police service for each of the next three years. [61093]
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Jack Straw):
Following the outcome of the comprehensive spending review, I announced on 21 July our plans to allow police spending to increase by 2.65 per cent. next year, by up to a further 2.8 per cent. in the following year and by up to an extra 4 per cent. in 2001-02. That represents an extra £1.24 billion over the next three years. Part of the additional funding for the second and third years will be dependent on the police achieving targets for efficiency improvements of 2 per cent. a year.
Mr. Fraser:
Will the Home Secretary join me in congratulating Dorset police, who have reduced crime to 1990 levels? Does he recognise the concerns that were expressed to me by the chief constable in Dorset, who said that funding increases would barely pay for pensions in the forthcoming year, let alone maintain the police service? What can the Home Secretary say or do to allay his fears and those of my constituents?
Mr. Straw:
I am certainly happy to congratulate the chief constable and his officers on what has been achieved in Dorset and to provide reassurance. First, the settlement that I announced in July amounts to a real-terms, albeit modest, increase in police spending for each of those years. Secondly, the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues
The best advice that I can give to the chief constable and the police authority in Dorset is to apply themselves to the still unimplemented recommendations of Her Majesty's inspectorate of constabulary, which give huge scope not only for making efficiency savings, but for increasing the effectiveness of the police service within the budgets that we have set.
Mr. Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield):
I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his recent announcement, which adds up to a reasonably generous settlement for the police. At the same time, may I encourage a thorough review of all police force management structures? Is it not about time that we started thinking the unthinkable on how to get better value for money out of top-quality managers and good management techniques in the police force--even, perhaps, abolishing the notion of chief constables for a more modern management structure that delivers the goods to the British public?
Mr. Straw:
I have no proposals to abolish the posts of chief constables. What we need, and on the whole have, are highly experienced and skilled professionals at the head of the police service. I accept the rest of my hon. Friend's question; it is not thinking the unthinkable. The Association of Chief Police Officers and the Association of Police Authorities accept the case for a better career and training structure in the upper levels of the police service. On top of changes to improve the effectiveness of the police service, we shall be ensuring that best-value arrangements apply to it.
Sir Norman Fowler (Sutton Coldfield):
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with the statistical section of the House of Commons Library that, between 1979 and 1997, there was a real increase of 72 per cent. in spending on the police, which meant an increase in police strength of 15,000? Under his plans, there will be no real increase in spending whatever between 1997 and 2001. Does that not mean an inevitable reduction in the strength of police forces?
Mr. Straw:
What I will accept, not from the Library of the House but from the Official Report, is that there is no case whatever for the Opposition to lecture us about the £1.24 billion increase in police spending because, far from criticising us for spending too little, the shadow Chancellor--the right hon. Gentleman may have been asleep when his right hon. Friend said this, and one can understand why--has been criticising us for spending too much. Indeed, he described this spending settlement as "reckless". The right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir N. Fowler) must spell out by how much he would reduce police budgets if he were in power.
Sir Norman Fowler:
I will not take lectures from the right hon. Gentleman on controlling public spending, as he knows only too well. Does he not understand that he has reduced the financial commitment to the police service? There are reports from around the country that
Mr. Straw:
Police service numbers fell by 500 between 1992 and 1997. It is my duty to point out the Opposition's double standards. I have here a wodge of letters that I have written to the right hon. Gentleman over the past four weeks, all of which are unanswered, in which I have asked him to say exactly by how much police spending would fall following his right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor's criticism of our spending, not for being too little but for being too much.
Moreover, I have here a little-known work, "Ministers Decide", which was originally priced at £18, but was knocked down, first to £2 and then to £1, and was picked up by a friend of mine. In it, a Mr. Norman Fowler, as he was then, says:
"The trouble with some of those who make much of their support for"--
a particular public service--
"is that they also oppose any measures taken to make it more effective."
The right hon. Gentleman was talking about the health service, but his criticism applies equally to the police service.
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