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Mr. Andrew Rowe (Faversham and Mid-Kent): As someone who has been fighting for a general social services council for at least 15 years, I welcome that proposal. However, I have two points to make to the Secretary of State.

First, the aging group of frail people who went into residential care with protected rights are now vulnerable to being moved into cheaper homes, which would be extremely painful and disruptive for them. I would be grateful if the Secretary of State could tell me what he intends to do about those people.

Secondly, in the increased partnership between non-governmental organisations and social services departments, there is a serious danger that the local authority departments will try to make the NGOs like themselves in the way in which they deliver services. Having just come from the opening of a new facility in Kent for the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, I am conscious of the enormous importance of well-run NGOs continuing to innovate and pioneer services in ways that may be regarded as risky by local authorities.

Mr. Dobson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his welcome for our proposals for a general social care council. As I said in my statement, it commands the support of people of good will on all sides and no side. The real test of the treatment of aging and frail old people is whether the standard of care is maintained or--preferably--improved. That standard must be applied by whomever is responsible for their care.

I have always been acutely conscious of voluntary organisations' innovatory activities, and I want them to continue. Local authorities always face a dilemma because some novel ways of doing things might be an improvement, but some end up not working. Local authorities have an understandable desire at least to ensure that there is a very good chance that some new provision is more effective than the old one. Generally speaking, we want to encourage innovation, as long as it is not so maverick that it is predictable that it will go wrong.

Ms Helen Southworth (Warrington, South): I very much welcome the report. I came into the Chamber to harass the Secretary of State about state sector boarding schools. I am, therefore, extremely pleased that they are included in the new protection, along with residential family centres, independent fostering agencies and small children's homes. That is extremely welcome, not just in my constituency, but across the country. Will regional children's rights officers' telephone numbers be made available in those schools and establishments? Will children have access to private telephones?

Mr. Dobson: I thank my hon. Friend for not harassing me. If she has not done so for the good reason that I do not need to be harassed, that is all the more welcome.

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It was certainly right and proper to extend coverage to state sector boarding schools. We want to cover all aspects of the welfare of children, whoever provides it and wherever it is provided. That seems logical, and I am glad that she is in favour of it. We certainly expect regional rights officers to make themselves known through telephone helplines and all sorts of things. We are, of course, establishing national machinery to back that up. We are trying to provide private telephones. Indeed, many local authority homes, and some voluntary homes, already provide private access to a telephone, and we must extend that.

Mr. John Bercow (Buckingham): Further to the inquiry of my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor), will all funding for the new children's services grants be additional to existing Government expenditure? If the answer is yes, will the right hon. Gentleman confirm today what he failed to confirm in the House on 5 November: at no stage will local authority social services standard spending assessments be readjusted downwards to reflect the introduction of those grants?

Mr. Dobson: They will not.

Mr. Bill O'Brien (Normanton): I join others in congratulating my right hon. Friend on his statement and thanking him for it. Local authorities, such as my own Wakefield city council, suffered for far too long under the Conservatives' unfair distribution of resources, which resulted in a reduction in the provision of elderly and child care in my area. The Tories cut resources allocated for that purpose. Following the launch of the community care charter, will my right hon. Friend extend it in due course to fire protection in old peoples' homes? Three people in my constituency perished 12 months ago because the home was not registered under fire services regulations. We must also deal with the question of elderly people who are denied services because they cannot afford them.

My right hon. Friend's statement goes a long way to ensuring fairness across the board in the provision of community care. There is much to be done to arrest the problems caused by the Tories. Will he consult his Cabinet colleagues on aids and adaptions in the community and care through the health service? I hope that protection can be extended so that we have a super community care programme throughout the country and old people are protected.

Mr. Dobson: I thank my hon. Friend for his welcome for what we propose. Apart from what might be described as the social care and welfare side of the provision of services for old people or young people, or people who are suffering from one form of disablement or another, we certainly need to ensure that we are getting the basics right and that buildings and complexes in which people live are safe and sound. We must ensure that that is done by bringing together all the Government and non-Government agencies in the area to ensure that the very best is being provided.

As I said when we introduced our response to the Utting report on safeguards for children in care, the test must be to ask ourselves, "Would this place be

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satisfactory for my aging parent or aging relative or relative suffering from disablement?" If the answer is no, people must set about improving things.

Mrs. Jacqui Lait (Beckenham): I thank the right hon. Gentleman for coming to Bromley this morning to turn the first earth for the new hospital. I also have two questions for him. Does he expect the inspectorate system currently run by councils to be transferred root and branch to the commissions for care standards, or will the two systems run in parallel? Will the commissions for care standards have membership from the independent sector and from the NHS?

Mr. Dobson: The hon. Member is virtually unique among Conservatives in welcoming additional spending on the health service. I suppose it is only reasonable that she should welcome my conducting the sod-cutting ceremony for the building of a £150 million new hospital in her constituency.

We do not intend the two systems to run in parallel. As the commissions for care standards come into operation, local authorities will lose their functions. However, we are making it clear that they must carry out those regulatory functions until the care standards commissions are in place. That is the vital aspect.

We are considering the subject of who will serve on the commissions. We certainly do not want them to be exclusively representative of one group or another. The idea is that there should be ministerial appointments to each of the regional boards, and that they will then employ the professional staff who do the work. It is crucial that the membership of those boards commands the respect of the public and of those providing the services, whether they be in the public, the voluntary or even the commercial sector.

Ms Ann Coffey (Stockport): I very much welcome my right hon. Friend's proposals to tighten regulation of children's homes. Specifically, I welcome the fact that small children's homes, which at the moment are unregulated, will be invited to offer themselves immediately for inspection. However, may I have his assurance that he will be very tough on those children's homes that decline to offer themselves for such inspection--and on local authorities that have placed children in those homes? As he will be aware, there is considerable concern, especially in the north-west, about standards in some of those homes.

Mr. Dobson: Children's homes with four or fewer children have not been inspected until now, but they will be inspected by law when we have introduced the new legislation. However, I am so concerned about the circumstances in some of those small homes--some are first rate, but others are not--that I am saying that I expect their owners to invite inspection by the existing local authority inspectors, so that they can start raising standards if they need to.

Another party to the process is the local authority or even voluntary organisation that is placing children in these homes. I shall shortly be saying to local authorities that they should not be placing children in such homes unless they have opened themselves for inspection.

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Those homes that are doing a good job and providing a good service have nothing to fear from inspection. It is the ones that are not doing that that have something to fear.

Mr. Julian Brazier (Canterbury): May I welcome the proposals for proper outside inspection of children's homes, but ask the Secretary of State what powers the inspectors will have in respect of councils that are actively opposing children in care being adopted? Surely it is desperately sad that with more than 50,000 children in care, barely 1,900 were adopted from care last year, with some councils not allowing one such child to be adopted. What powers will the inspectors have in this area?

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