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Mr. Richard Allan (Sheffield, Hallam): For the moment I shall refer merely to the Human Rights Act 1998, devolution for Scotland and Wales, London government and the move towards regional assemblies, as those are the only examples that come to mind immediately.
Mr. Tyrie: Has the Liberal party influenced any of those decisions? Do they think that they will secure anything more as a result of their constitutional pact? Have they not understood that, when the Prime Minister says, "Closed lists it will be", closed lists it is?
Where has the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown) brought the Liberals? They have abandoned the proper and traditional role that they should have. They want a democratic upper House, but they should surely realise that that is the last thing that they will get if Labour secures stage one reform without our having first debated and clarified what stage two will contain, and when we will secure it.
Ms Hazel Blears (Salford):
Just 18 months ago, I was elected by the people of Salford to try to ensure that their voice was heard in Parliament and, indeed, by Government. I have done my best in that regard, but it has become increasingly clear to me that one of the biggest challenges for all of us is the requirement to make politics relevant, and to ensure that our decisions here reflect the priorities of those whom we represent. If we are really committed to representing our communities, it is clear that we must revitalise our democracy, reinvigorate our Parliament and renew our constitution.
I have listened to the debate. I have heard the Opposition become more excited and animated than for some time. They certainly were at the beginning of the debate; time has perhaps taken its toll already. They have become excited and animated about the subjects that they have chosen to put in their narrowly worded amendment. They have become excited about the virtues of closed lists and open lists for the European parliamentary elections. They have become over-excited about the composition of the House of Lords and the need to retain the rights of hereditary peers to vote and to influence our legislation. Those may be the sort of issues that excite and animate the Opposition, but they are not the sort of issues that excite and animate the people whom I was sent to the House to try to represent.
Perhaps the best speech that I have heard this evening was made by the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke), who made the most down-to-earth, practical statement of the changes that he would like. The only difficulty was that he wanted to vote for the abolition of the right of hereditary peers to vote, but not yet. Perhaps we have the chance to persuade him to be a little more forthcoming in the way in which he approaches the issue.
Mrs. Laing:
The hon. Lady may be surprised to hear that I entirely agree with what she has said. Has she thought of asking her Government, whom she supports, why we are spending so much time on those issues, which, as she rightly says, do not excite the people--who sent her, me and all hon. Members here to talk about education, health and the economy? Why are we spending so much time on those internal issues?
Ms Blears:
We are spending so much time on those internal issues because, as I understand it, the issue of closed lists versus open lists has been debated on six separate occasions in the House. The Opposition have wanted to take up valuable parliamentary time in discussing those fairly arcane and irrelevant issues. If the Opposition show some common sense, we could get those matters through this House and then concentrate on jobs, the national health service and improving our communities.
There is a fundamental issue at stake in debates such as this one, about constitution and Parliament. We can discuss and pontificate all that we like, and I have no doubt that the debate will be vigorous and fascinating for those who are in the political class and for those who exercise power, but a whole swathe of people are completely disaffected and alienated from the political process. In recent times, there have been worrying developments in my constituency and in most of the great cities--in Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield and London.
At the last general election, the turnout in my constituency was barely 60 per cent. Average turnouts at local government elections last year were between 20 and 25 per cent.; in inner-city wards in my constituency, they were between 11 and 16 per cent. I use that simply to illustrate that a large section of the community that we are supposed to represent in the House is completely disengaged from the political process. The longer that we spend discussing the virtues of closed lists and open lists and arcane internal politics, the more we exclude those people from our discussions, from deciding their future, from engaging in politics and from being part of what is an important political process.
There are people in my constituency--I was shocked at this--who genuinely do not know even how to vote. Generations have not worked and generations have not voted. They do not know what happens at the ballot box. A young person has asked me, "Will I have to write an essay on politics? Will the council be able to trace me for my poll tax debts?" That is the situation that we are in. People do not know how the system works. They are not a part of our democracy or of our constitution.
Mr. Allan:
Does the hon. Lady accept that, to an extent, political parties must take the blame because, in safe seats, they tend not to work so hard? Does she agree that fairer voting systems, in which every vote counts, are an important way of ensuring that political parties work in those areas because they will need the votes?
Ms Blears:
I represent the area where I was born and brought up and where I have lived all my life. No one works harder than me and my party to try to engage people in politics. It is a fairly superficial argument to say that proportional representation will be the answer to all the problems of engaging the community back in politics. This is a more fundamental issue about making people feel that they have a stake in their community, that they can affect what goes on and that they can make a real difference to their lives. Simply imposing another structure and another process is not the answer. We must fundamentally engage with people, use relevant and accessible language and express political ideas in a way that catches their imagination and fires their enthusiasm to be part of a political process.
I emphasise that the system of politics and democracy that I want is not looking backwards towards the House of Lords, or towards a system of privilege, power and elite, or to history. It looks to the future and engages the people whom I have talked about, making them feel that they can make a difference. It is vibrant, modern, fresh and alive. In this House, the sooner we stop talking simply to one another and having incestuous debates that do not relate to the people, the sooner our democracy will begin to live and be able to breathe new life into civic and parliamentary affairs.
Mr. Gerald Howarth (Aldershot):
I listened with interest to what the hon. Member for Salford (Ms Blears) said and I disagreed with most of it, save to say that she is right to draw attention to the fact that there is less concern to be involved in political issues these days. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Allan) is probably right to say that the political parties have something to do with that, but the way in which we organise ourselves in this House has something to do with it too. This is an extremely important debate. Far from being irrelevant, it goes to the heart of what we should be discussing in this House--the great constitutional issues.
The great issue that we are discussing tonight is the total absence of the Government's plan for an alternative to the revising chamber in this Parliament. That is a national scandal, to which attention has been drawn by all Conservative Members. There has been no acknowledgment from Labour Members of the constitutional vandalism that they are wreaking.
The measure that is included in the Queen's Speech is the seventh of a series of measures that are wreaking huge constitutional change. The Home Secretary referred to incremental change, which was a complete misnomer. The hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton) had it right when he said that, in constitutional terms, this is probably the most radical Government this century.
The proposal to abolish the independent revising chamber of this Parliament, the other place, is the seventh measure. It follows devolution in Scotland and Wales, which is now all coming adrift; and the creation of a new tier of government in the English regions, which no one in my part of the world, the south-east, wants. They think that it is merely another unnecessary tier of local government. Together with what is going on in Scotland and Wales, it is stoking up the demand for an English Parliament. The Government have no idea of the whirlwind that they are going to reap from the changes that they are forcing on the British people.
The third measure is the incorporation of the European convention on human rights into our legislation. I have said this to the House before, and I apologise for saying it again, but it is important that Labour Members should understand: incorporation will change fundamentally the ways in which the House operates and is regarded by the people outside. That measure will put power into the hands of the judges in a way that they do not currently enjoy. So long as those judges reflect the prejudices of the Labour party, it may be content with that, but there will come a time when the judges do not reflect its prejudices and when it starts to realise that, instead of coming to the House to seek the redress of grievances, our constituents will make their way to the law courts.
The fourth change, which has been mentioned several times already in the debate, is the change to the voting system used in the European elections. It is no good for
Labour Members, such as the hon. Member for Salford, saying that it is irrelevant whether we use open lists or closed lists, because it is a fundamental issue. The people of Britain have no idea that, in next year's Euro-elections, they will be able to vote not for an individual candidate but only for a slate. That will be their only opportunity.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir N. Fowler) has already listed the deficiencies of the Government's proposals for the European elections. I should like to ask the Minister what will happen if--as frequently happens in the Labour party--a Member of the European Parliament is removed from the party list? Will a substitute be found, or will a by-election be called? What will happen? What arrangements will there be to deal with circumstance such as that?
The fifth matter that I should like to deal with is the Government's flirting with proportional representation as proposed in the Jenkins report. The hon. Member for Salford did not seem to be as keen on proportional representation as some other Labour Members. I am delighted that there is some common ground between us on that issue, if not on others.
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