| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Dr. Fox: Will the great new democratic freedom in Wales and the lust for devolution be extended to the Labour party in the form of one member, one vote?
Mr. Michael: Every member of the Labour party will have a vote in the selection of the leader of the Labour party in Wales.
It is not surprising that the hon. Gentleman wants to move away from the argument about the effectiveness of our systems. If we are to be effective--if this House and the House of Lords are to be effective--it is important that decisions should be taken at the right level, that we should get the right results and that we should enhance quality of life for people in every part of this land. Conservative Members seem to have lost sight of the fact that that is what constitutional change is about. It is not about arid theory; it is about making life better for people.
Mr. Derek Foster (Bishop Auckland):
My right hon. Friend is expounding the most exciting aspect of the devolution debate. For too long, this country has been over-centralised. Now, we have the opportunity to release the talent of the British people in all their countries and regions. That is the way to get this country moving again. I thank him for raising the subject.
Mr. Michael:
I am delighted that my right hon. Friend, as an English Member, understands the process of devolution and the fact that, for it to be effective, there needs to be a dynamic partnership between different levels of government. That is why I shall be putting my energy in the coming months into preparing the ground for that new relationship and dynamic devolution that I spoke about earlier.
Mr. Gerald Howarth:
On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I, a number of my hon. Friends and even the Home Secretary were brought to account by the Deputy Speaker when we ranged outside the narrow confines of the amendment. It appears that the Secretary of State for Wales is straying on territory--
Madam Speaker:
Order. I am perfectly capable of knowing what the Secretary of State is saying.
Mr. Michael:
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman was not here when the Opposition spokesman raised the same points of devolution to Wales to which I am alluding. I am referring briefly to those issues because they are vital. Until the winding-up speech, the Opposition chose to ignore them. I am also trying to bring home to the hon. Gentleman, if he would care to listen, the fact brought to
Reference has been made to devolution, which as my predecessor--my right hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies)--said is not an event but a process. It is neither a single one-off election nor a point on a process from dependency to complete independence, but a process of engaging people as we seek to do in Wales and in every part of the United Kingdom.
Defending the powers of hereditary peers seems a million miles away from the issues that affect our constituents. That is why I am delighted that the Gracious Speech this year underlines the importance of the events of devolution, including the election, in the next 12 months. It reminds us that those developments will enhance the unity of the United Kingdom, not undermine it. England and Wales will remain partners, bound together by our common legal and economic framework and the accidents of Welsh geography, but allowing us to express our distinctive identity through the Welsh Assembly, which will provide us with our own clear voice.
Let us apply to the House of Lords and the arguments made by the Opposition the same test of success that I will apply to the Welsh Assembly. What does it do for our people in terms of a strong economy, jobs, better education, opportunities for all, a better health service and healthy, safe communities? The Assembly and the House will be judged by those criteria, which should also apply to the House of Lords. We should consider whether the retention of the rights of hereditary peers can do anything to help.
Mr. Barry Jones (Alyn and Deeside):
My right hon. Friend mentioned Offa's dyke. He will know that that great earthwork goes through my constituency, as does the earthwork of Watt. However, I am not concerned with Anglo-Saxon imperialists. How does my right hon. Friend envisage his plans helping the economy in my constituency? What will his proposals do for Alyn and Deeside?
Mr. Michael:
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. He does not realise that, as a teenager, I became a world expert on Watt's dyke, but I shall speak to him about that some other time. Each of the 10 measures to which my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary referred will improve the quality of life and its freedoms and the accountability and responsibilities of institutions to the British people. That is our agenda and that of my hon. Friend in his constituency and his work.
Mr. Grieve:
I know that time is short and that the Minister still has points to make. He was kind enough to
Mr. Michael:
Yes, but to do so I shall have to turn to my right hon. and hon. Friends and to the Liberal Democrats, as they were not addressed by the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues.
The right hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Mr. Maclennan) noted the ambitious nature of the Government's reform programme. I welcome the fact that he and his party are prepared to enter into debate about modernisation. We may not always agree--it would be nice if the Conservatives took that on board--but he was right to point out that the underlying casuistry of the self-seeking actions by the hereditary peers, who have undermined the conventions of our democratic traditions, has been defended outrageously by Conservative Members this evening.
Mr. Kenneth Clarke:
Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Michael:
I am coming to the speech by the right hon and learned Gentleman.
In contrast, the Conservative speeches--the right hon. and learned Gentleman was the first who gave the slightest hint of engaging in debate on how to reform the House of Lords--
Mr. Michael:
I should get my retaliation in before the right hon. and learned Gentleman replies. He was the first for some time to give the slightest hint of engaging in a debate on how to reform the House of Lords, but he retreated rapidly from any real engagement. We shall engage the Conservatives in a full debate only when the rights of hereditary peers have been removed. The Conservatives will not seek to restore such a barmy constitutional anachronism, so let us remove the appendix and get on with improving the health of the body politic.
Mr. Clarke:
I thank the Minister for giving way. He listened to some of the debate, in which I heard no Conservative Member defend our right to a permanent majority in the upper House. Will he address the question that the Bill would make the present Government the first for almost 200 years accountable to a second House entirely appointed by the Executive? Does he have a solitary argument in favour of that in terms of the accountability that he is now talking about?
Mr. Michael:
No. The composition of the House of Lords will be changed by the removal of the hereditary peers, so the form that it then takes will be a matter for constitutional debate and consultation.
Sir Norman Fowler:
Answer the question.
Mr. Michael:
I have answered the question; if Conservative Members listened to the question and the answer, they might learn something.
The right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe made a quirky claim to be a close ally of my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), which sounded like
another vicious personal attack. Other than that, his position was illogical and untenable. He argued that the outrage of the hereditary peers' genetic veto should continue while we build a consensus on how to construct a second chamber that retains and improves what is good about the House of Lords and removes what is bad. When we published our proposals in opposition, I found it extraordinary to behold the instant conversion of hereditary peers to the wholesale democratisation of the House of Lords provided that we waited until every detail had been worked out and agreed before we removed their votes.
The right hon. Member for Fareham (Sir P. Lloyd) is usually a thoughtful man, but he made the ridiculous assertion that the hereditary peers are independent and not merely Conservative. Of course we need a balance in the constitution, as the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe rightly said, but how will parliamentary democracy be reduced if we make the House of Lords more democratic? Reforming the House of Lords is like eating an elephant; it must be done a bite at a time. That suggestion seems to contain much wisdom.
The hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Allan) made a typically vigorous speech and said a great deal with which I agreed. I am glad that he was not intimidated by his confrontation with large, gun-toting, rugby-playing Liberal peers. The hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs. Laing) was worried about the Government's response to the Neill report. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary dealt with those issues comprehensively and at length on 9 November.
I remind Conservative Members that we made clear in the general election our intentions for the House of Lords. Our manifesto said:
It is absolutely clear that no Government this century have undertaken such a radical and wide-ranging overhaul of our constitution. Far from wrecking the constitution, we have sought to amend it. The Liberal Democrats have been engaged in that process but there has been no Conservative engagement, to that party's eternal shame. Conservatives can claim no rights or authority as supporters of the constitution when their approach is entirely negative and destructive.
During this Parliament, we will ensure that decisions are taken much closer to the people. We will improve local government and government at the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Ireland level. We will ensure that people no longer have to go to Strasbourg to enforce their basic human rights. We will clean up politics by giving effect to the recommendations of the Neill committee. We will end the absurd anachronism by which people can serve in this legislature not by virtue of election or their own merits but by accident of birth. I am proud of what we have achieved and of what lies ahead.
Question put, That the amendment be made:--
"As an initial, self-contained reform, not dependent on further reform in the future, the right of hereditary peers to sit and vote in the House of Lords will be ended by statute. This will be the first stage in a process of reform to make the House of Lords more democratic and representative. The legislative powers of the House of Lords will remain unaltered."
Our intentions were clear and we have pursued them in government.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |