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Public Buildings (PFI)
31. Mr. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North): What assessment he has made of the resource implications of National Audit Office auditing of the use of private finance initiatives in the construction of public buildings. [61372]
Mr. Robert Sheldon (Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission): The Commission meets regularly to assess the adequacy of the resources of the National Audit Office. In 1997-98, the National Audit Office produced four reports on private finance initiative projects, all of which were the subject of reports by the Public Accounts Committee. With the continuing and
increasing importance of PFI, the Comptroller and Auditor-General will be making further reports in future years.
Mr. Corbyn: Would my right hon. Friend be prepared to authorise a further examination of the use of PFI, and of its long-term costs, in terms of borrowing and repayment for capital building and the loss by local authorities or health authorities of control of the buildings that they own? Does he agree that there is a danger that, in pursuit of short-term objectives, we will saddle future generations with large bills for newly constructed hospitals, schools or other public buildings?
Mr. Sheldon: There is of course the question of efficiency versus the finance cost, and it should be possible for those in the private sector to meet the extra finance costs by greater efficiency. If they cannot, the justification for the process is largely gone. I understand that the Public Accounts Committee is to publish a general report on the operation of PFI, and we look forward to receiving that in due course.
CHURCH COMMISSIONERS
The hon. Member for Middlesbrough, representing the Church Commissioners, was asked--
Pensions and Stipends
32. Sir Sydney Chapman (Chipping Barnet): If he will make a statement about the proportion and amount of the Church Commissioners' contribution to clergy and widows' pensions and stipends in the current financial year. [61373]
Mr. Stuart Bell (Second Church Estates Commissioner, representing the Church Commissioners): In 1998, on current assumptions, the Church Commissioners will meet total expenditure on behalf of the Church of £160.6 million, of which £134.3 million--83.6 per cent.--will go on clergy stipends, pensions and related expenditure. This includes transitional support payments to dioceses to assist them in meeting the full costs of pension contributions for parochial clergy.
Sir Sydney Chapman: I am grateful for that reply. Does it not underline the vital importance of the Church Commissioners maximising their assets, albeit within ethical constraints, to meet such a great proportion of clergy's and widows' pensions and stipends? Does it not also put into perspective the recent request that the parishes themselves try to produce more funding, given the significantly increasing costs of running the ministry?
Mr. Bell: Our current level of parochial ministry support of £20 million has been agreed following a long process of consultation with dioceses. We have to balance our support for today's Church with the need to provide long-term sustainable support for future generations. The commissioners are very grateful to the parishes for their generous response in raising giving levels to meet an increasing proportion of ministry costs. We are confident that the parishes will continue to rise to the challenge.
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION
The Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission was asked--
Government Information and Communication Service
33. Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby): If he will take steps to ensure that the National Audit Office has sufficient resources to enable it properly to audit the Government Information and Communication Service. [61374]
Mr. Robert Sheldon (Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission): The Commission meets regularly to assess the adequacy of the resources of the National Audit Office. The Government Information and Communication Service is a cross-Government service of about 1,000 communications specialists employed to engage in the full range of Government information activities. The activities of the service's members are audited as part of the annual financial audit of each Department undertaken by the Comptroller and Auditor-General.
Mr. Robathan: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the disingenuous Government campaign that is unnecessarily frightening small businesses into preparing for the euro, even though a maximum of one in 10 are likely to be affected by it? Does he agree that the campaign might be propaganda and an abuse of public money; and will he ensure that the NAO has the money to investigate it, especially in the light of the Neill report?
Mr. Sheldon: As the hon. Gentleman may know, the Cabinet Secretary, Sir Richard Wilson, considers the boundary between party political advocacy and the presentation of Government policy. It is right that he should be in that position, and I am sure that he will draw the distinguishing line between the two forms of activity.
CHURCH COMMISSIONERS
The hon. Member for Middlesbrough, representing the Church Commissioners, was asked--
Assessment
34. Mr. Simon Hughes (Southwark, North and Bermondsey): What systems are in place for assessingthe effectiveness of the Church Commissioners' activities. [61375]
Mr. Stuart Bell (Second Church Estates Commissioner, representing the Church Commissioners): The commissioners reviewed their systems in the light of the Lambeth report in 1993 and responded to all its recommendations, including the establishment of an audit committee. They further reviewed their systems in connection with the National Institutions Measure, which establishes the Archbishops Council for the Church of England. They also take account of evolving best practice in corporate governance.
Mr. Hughes: The commissioners' mission statement is to maximise the assets of the Church to support its ministry, especially in areas of need and opportunity. In the coming 50 years, the second half-century of the commissioners' existence, will there be a way of measuring the effectiveness of the outputs--we can already gauge how effective the inputs are--in terms of the number of people who belong to the Church of England and the number who become Christians as a result of the commissioners' efforts?
Mr. Bell: I can give one assurance: I do not think that I will be Second Church Estates Commissioner in 50 years' time. We shall do our very best to satisfy the hon. Gentleman. For the long term, we have set out policy and financial arrangements making us answerable to Parliament and to the General Synod of the Church of England. Our annual reports and accounts, together with the resolutions passed by the commissioners with reference thereto, are laid before both Houses of Parliament by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and before the General Synod by its Secretary General.
We have actuarial accounts for only three to four years into the future, but I would hope that the contribution of the commissioners, the Archbishops Council and the whole Church movement will ensure that more Christians, rather than fewer, will be practising in this country in the next 50 years.
National Audit Office
35. Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome): What recent discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer concerning the current scope of the responsibilities of the National Audit Office. [61376]
Mr. Robert Sheldon (Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission): I last met the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 26 March, accompanied by the Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts. Among other matters, we discussed the current scope of the responsibilities of the Comptroller and Auditor-General.
The Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee and I pointed out to the Chancellor that accountability to Parliament could better be served by extending the access rights of the Comptroller and Auditor-General to follow public money to its final recipients. I will continue actively to pursue those matters with the Treasury in conjunction with the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee and the Comptroller and Auditor-General.
Mr. Heath:
I am most grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his answer, which is part of a series of answers that he has given me on the issue. Does he share my exasperation that it is now 18 months into the lifetime of this Government and we still have a glaring hole in the audit arrangements for public bodies? I note that he last
Mr. Sheldon:
The hon. Gentleman makes an attractive proposition that I would be happy to consider. It is
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