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Mr. Eric Forth (Bromley and Chislehurst): I have no doubt that the Minister is one of those who argue that it is right to put high taxes on petrol, for example, to promote conservation and the responsible use of resources. Why, then, would he not want to encourage responsible use of the scarce resource of water and to provide a proper source of investment to improve the product in the future by levying appropriate charges?
Mr. Meacher: The right hon. Gentleman seems to have missed the point that the water summit had a 10-point plan, one point of which was about leakages and the other nine of which were about water conservation. We also issued a consultation paper on abstraction earlier this year; we have received the responses, and I hope that we will be able to make a statement soon. We want to put in place a set of incentives to ensure that there is proper conservation by all sections of the community: industry, households and the water companies themselves.
There is good news for customers on the overall level of water bills. The Bill is designed to institute a system of fair and affordable water charges, especially for vulnerable customers, so that we can safeguard public health while ensuring that water is used in a sustainable way and protecting the aquatic habitat.
The Bill has three key aims: preventing household disconnection; protecting vulnerable groups; and promoting increased customer choice. Water is a basic essential of life, needed not only for customers' personal hygiene but for the public health. It cannot be acceptable to allow families to be deprived of access to a sufficient supply of clean water for drinking, washing, cooking and sanitation.
Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough):
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Meacher:
I will in a moment.
I recognise that, in recent years, there has been a welcome reduction in the number of customers disconnected. The trend is going in the right direction, down from just over 1,900 household disconnections in 1997-98 to about 640 in the first six months of the current financial year. The figures are encouraging, but we should not forget that any disconnection can lead to significant deprivation, social exclusion and risks to the health of the whole community, not only the families who are cut off.
Mr. James Gray (North Wiltshire)
rose--
Mr. Meacher:
I give way to the hon. Gentleman who asked me first.
Mr. Leigh:
I am most grateful to the right hon. Gentleman.
Obviously, disconnections are to be regretted but, as the Minster said, there were only 640 out of a nation of perhaps 30 million households. Does he at least acknowledge that, if we cease the threat of disconnection, the number of people who act irresponsibly and refuse to pay their water bills may well--indeed, almost certainly will--increase, and that what we do in the House, be it on taxes, benefits or any other matter, affects people's behaviour and whether they act responsibly?
Mr. Meacher:
Of course I am concerned about the small number of people who can pay but leave it to the last moment or who refuse to pay, but, before the Bill was conceived, nine of the 27 water companies, of their own free volition, had already decided to dispense with disconnection. Indeed, that number has increased from six to nine this year. Of course we strongly support water companies having the power to obtain the money that is due to them and I am keen that they should pursue that vigorously.
Mr. Allan Rogers (Rhondda):
The right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) gave the impression that people deliberately do not pay their bills, but such behaviour is rare. After privatisation of the water industry, the experience in my constituency was that old-age pensioners who had had their tariffs fixed on the
Mr. Meacher:
I am sure that my hon. Friend is correct.
Mr. Simon Burns
(West Chelmsford): rose--
Mr. Meacher:
Hold on. I have been asked a question and I intend to answer it. I would be the first to recognise that a tiny number of people simply refuse to pay until they are forced to do so, but I suspect that a majority of those who do not pay are very poor, and include many pensioners and unemployed. How many Conservative Members know the level of income support for an adult over 25? Can any Conservative Member tell the House what it is? Perhaps I may assist them. The level of income support for up to 10 million people is £50.35 a week, leaving aside housing benefit. Many people find it extraordinarily difficult to meet many of their basic bills, and the Government--unlike the Conservatives--believe that it is wrong to penalise people who cannot pay.
Mr. Burns:
In answer to the intervention by the hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers), the Minister said that his hon. Friend was right. Will he correct the record for the House and accept that--after privatisation and continuing this year--the number of disconnections by private water companies has fallen dramatically compared to when the industry was nationalised? In saying that his hon. Friend was right, the Minister has failed to explain to the House that many of the private water companies have schemes designed to help pensioners and the less well-off.
Mr. Meacher:
The hon. Gentleman fails to understand the line of my reasoning. I am not obliged to correct anything, because I have never denied the points that he makes. I said clearly that there had been a welcome reduction in the number of households that face disconnection.
Mr. Burns:
You said that the hon. Member for Rhondda was right.
Mr. Meacher:
If the hon. Gentleman wants an answer, he should listen to it. Many pensioners are under great pressure because of their low incomes and a number are threatened with disconnection for that reason. However, that is entirely consistent with the fact that some water companies have introduced devices to help pensioners with their water bills. I think that about six out of the 27 companies have charitable trusts. Many regard themselves as running businesses, not providing social assistance to disadvantaged groups. I am concerned to protect everyone who properly needs protection, as that does not happen at present.
Mr. Meacher:
I want to make one more point. More than half of the 640--a small number, but it is highly
Mr. Meacher:
I will give way in a moment. Not only have more than half those people been disconnected for more than 48 hours, but our evidence shows that one third of them may have been cut off for more than four weeks. Is that a policy that Conservative Members believe is justified?
Mr. Gray:
I think that the figures that the Minister used have been disputed. I believe that I am right in saying that two thirds, rather than half, of the 640 were reconnected within 48 hours. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman could check that out. More important, will he advise the House how many of the 640 disconnections this year were schools and hospitals, which are exempt under the Bill, how many were second homes and how many were empty properties?
Mr. Meacher:
Yes, we will certainly try to supply those figures. I think that those groups are a small proportion of the total. Under the Bill, schools and hospitals could not be disconnected, but second homes would still be liable to disconnection. The Bill concerns principal or only homes, but I will find out whether the evidence that the hon. Gentleman wants can be provided. I am sure that my figures are correct and that more than half those disconnected had no water supply for more than 48 hours.
Mr. Meacher:
The hon. Gentleman can make his own speech in due course.
I do not find it tolerable or acceptable to expect consumers to live without water for such a significant period and I stand firmly by that principle. Therefore, we propose to prevent water companies from disconnecting customers in their principal or only home for non-payment. Nor do we consider that disconnection should be allowed for schools and hospitals, which provide vital services to the communities in which they are located.
Those proposals reflect--perhaps Conservative Members will reflect on this--present practice in much of the industry. There has never been provision for disconnection for failure to pay sewerage bills. As I said, nine water companies in England and Wales did not disconnect any households for failure to pay water service bills in the first half of this year and there is no threat of disconnection--nor has there ever been--for non-payment in Scotland or Northern Ireland. If those water companies, in such important and large parts of our country, can do without disconnection and run a perfectly good water service, that can be true throughout the country. The proposals should not have a major impact on water companies because of the relatively small number of disconnections.
Of course, we firmly believe that water companies have a right to the moneys that customers owe them and we vigorously support their recovering debts to which they are entitled. Companies will continue to be able to use a range of procedures to enforce payment of water bills, such as the use of bailiffs to recover money or goods and of attachment of earnings orders, garnishee orders or charging orders. Any such procedure incurs court charges, which are added to the debt to be paid. That is a significant disincentive to any non-payer who can pay, so the proposals clearly do not represent a soft option for customers. Under the Bill, there is no easy way out for non-payers who can pay.
Since we first announced our proposals to prohibit disconnection, several companies have been considering the use of devices such as trickle valves, which reduce flow to properties and cause significant inconvenience to customers, with the intention of enforcing payment. I hope that I have shown that our policies on disconnection reflect a deeply held concern about the health and hygiene implications if customers are deprived of a good supply of clean water. In line with that principle, I believe that we also need to act against the possible use of limiting devices as an alternative to disconnection. The Bill therefore makes specific provision to ensure that customers' well-being is not put at risk by the use of such devices.
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