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Mr. Robert Syms (Poole): I support my hon. Friend on new clause 3. It is less prescriptive than new clause 2. Having listened to what the Minister said, I do not think that the Government and the official Opposition are too far apart. We are looking for reassurance that statistical information will be available by which we can measure the effectiveness of the operation of the legislation.
The Association of British Insurers supports the concept of parliamentary scrutiny, as we all do. It is important that the collection system be seen to be fair and efficient. Earlier, the Government took credit for raising between £120 million and £140 million through this proposal, and said that it would not cost anyone anything. However, as we have heard, insurance costs will be incurred. How the data can be collected efficiently will be an important matter for hon. Members to consider.
The impact on insurance premiums may be different for different categories. The young may pay disproportionately higher premiums, so may be hit much harder. If the Minister could move a little more in our direction, we could be reassured that there will be enough information to have a sensible, reasonable debate about the effectiveness of the legislation, how it is operating and what impact it has on the national health service, insurance payers and our constituents; and, having sat on the Committee considering the Bill, I for one would be satisfied.
Mr. Hutton:
The arguments in support of both these new clauses rest on a number of assumptions that I do not accept. The first assumption is that the Government have been less than open about the impact of the legislation, especially on motorists and on NHS funding. That is not so. The new clauses would lay down new obligations to disclose information, but that is unnecessary for reasons that I shall outline.
The Opposition assume that the Government are trying to withhold information, but we are not. Throughout the passage of the Bill, we have tried to help Members to appreciate the fundamental issues underpinning the legislation. We want to make the maximum amount of information available to allow proper scrutiny by the House of the proposed measures. For a general reason, I feel that there is no substance in the underlying arguments in favour of either new clause. Both would impose additional obligations on the Government to disclose information to the House.
The arguments for the new clauses are based on a second false assumption--that we are imposing a new charge on people who use the national health service. We are not doing that. The Bill will simply streamline and improve arrangements for collection of existing charges, which are recoverable under legislation dating back to the 1930s. It is concerned with ensuring that the NHS can
recover the costs of treating road accident victims, not from motorists or patients but from insurance companies, when a successful claim for compensation has been made following a road traffic accident.
Mr. Hammond:
I do not accept the Minister's assertion that this is not a new NHS charge. The Government are giving teeth to a mechanism that has enabled the collection of a piffling £15 million or £16 million a year in charges, to ensure that £150 million a year is collected. The man in the street, however, sees little difference between the introduction of a wholly new charge and the ratcheting up tenfold of an existing charge, converting a relatively meaningless exercise into the raising of a significant amount.
Mr. Hutton:
With respect, I think that most members of the public can distinguish between the more effective collection of an existing charge and the laying down of a new charge for the use of the national health service. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman's argument is very coherent, and I am not sure that he will consider it to be so after he has had a chance to reflect on it.
There is no logic, or foundation in fact, for hon. Members' justification of the new clauses. It is underscored by the assumption that the Government are trying to withhold information from the House and from individual Members, which has led to the demand in new clause 2 for an unprecedented obligation on insurance companies to give the House information directly in the form of annual reports, and the demand in new clause 3 for the Secretary of State to make that information available annually.
The hysteria among Liberal Democrats seems to have subsided. I assume that they now have the hustings for the leadership vacancy that has arisen under better control. Perhaps, in the current spirit of harmony between the two sides of the House, we can begin to examine the real issues created by the Bill, rather than the fantasy and hyperbole that featured in much of what the Liberal Democrats said in Committee.
We are discussing a simple mechanism that will facilitate the recovery of NHS charges. We want the NHS to benefit from significant additional resources. We have some sympathy with what the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) said, but we want to be sensitive to issues of commercial confidentiality. We are aware of the burdens on business, and we do not intend to impose unnecessary and unreasonable burdens on insurance companies, which is one of the reasons why we do not support new clause 2.
I should make it clear that the Department has never refused to offer MPs information about amounts collected by the NHS under existing road traffic legislation--
Dr. Harris:
Will the Minister give way?
As I said, the Department has never refused to offer information, and we have no intention of withholding it in the future.
The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge helpfully stated that, according to information received, just over £16 million was recovered last year under the existing scheme. The Department of Health already
collects such information: we aggregate trust accounts relating to road traffic income. The information is readily available now, and will continue to be available to hon. Members in future.
Mr. Hammond:
I suspect that the information to which the Minister refers will be extracted from trust accounts, and that there will therefore be a delay. The new regime for which the Bill provides will give the Minister an opportunity to obtain the information directly from the compensation recovery unit, a Government agency. Assuming that the unit is computerised, I would expect the information to be available on a quarterly basis, and very soon after the event.
Mr. Hutton:
The hon. Gentleman has done the House a favour by drawing attention to one of the benefits of the changes that we are introducing. The compensation recovery unit will have the advantage of up-to-date information technology, including new software, that will enable the information to be available to the House more quickly. I am not sure that we shall be able to provide it on a quarterly basis, but as a result of access to more efficient information technology, we shall generally be able to provide it sooner.
I assure the hon. Gentleman, and others who are worried, that we have no intention of withholding such information from the House. It is important information; it will inform debates on any regulations laid before the House; and we want scrutiny of the legislation to be as well informed as possible.
One of the difficulties that we have encountered with the Bill so far is caused by the desire on the part of Liberal Democrats in particular to misrepresent what we are doing. I understand that--it is a purely opportunistic political exercise--but we do not intend to withhold crucial information from the House. We want the House to be well informed, and we will ensure that it is.
For the reasons that I have given, I do not believe that there is any substantive argument for either new clause.
Dr. Harris:
Will the Minister give way?
We do not accept the arguments of the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris) for his new clause, which we consider to be unreasonable and unfair. We do not intend to legislate along those lines.
I hope that the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge and his colleagues will accept my assurance that we intend to make it absolutely clear that the information will be made readily available. We are committed to reviewing the scheme after six months, and to publishing the results of our review. I hope that, on that basis, the hon. Gentleman will not press new clause 3, and the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon will not press new clause 2.
Dr. Harris:
It is interesting that the Minister should ask me not to press new clause 2, but--with uncharacteristic
We do not doubt that information, particularly that requested in new clause 3, can be made available, and that the Government will do their best to make it available. That is why the Liberal Democrats did not table a similar new clause. We are reassured. Although we support--as we did in Committee--measures to enable the Government to provide the information, I believe that it will be available by means of parliamentary questions, the six-monthly review and other channels. As I said in Committee, I feel that it would be more readily available if payments were made to health authorities--which I think should be done for other reasons--but I think that it can be obtained from trusts and, probably, from the compensation recovery unit.
We tabled new clause 2 because we feel that the crucial information that is required relates not to the global sum raised, but to the effects on individuals' car insurance. That will, of course, be a matter for debate. I was trying to help the House to decide whether this is a valuable way of raising money for the NHS by urging the Government to consider incorporating measures that will force insurance companies to make their own calculations on the effects, to help Members and the general public to educate themselves as to how much NHS revenue will result from the higher premiums.
I understand the Conservatives' views on commercial information. I am sure that it is possible to word legislation more tightly to enable information to be obtained from insurance companies and examined without the sharing of commercially confidential information. Liberal Democrats want to extract a flat figure representing the amount that insurance companies think ordinary people are contributing to the increased amount that is being collected.
I accept the Minister's opening point that the charge is not new. If hon. Members check the record, they will find that Liberal Democrats have at no point stated that we believe the charge to be new. We think that there was an opportunity to get rid of a charge, but it is clear at any rate that the Government will have increased income. That is one of their reasons for introducing the legislation.
The measure will generate additional income from an existing charge by making its recovery more compulsory, by nationalising it, in effect, and by making it more efficient. If one wants to raise revenue by that method, the Bill is a good way in which to do it. Because we do not want to do that, we oppose the measure; it is not because the Bill is badly drafted, or would achieve its aim inefficiently. However, we do want to see exactly how the extra amount is raised from individual drivers' car insurance.
2.45 pm
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