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Mr. Borrow: On that point, does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the problems with the existing legislation is that it criminalises young males below the age of consent, whereas all the other age-of-consent legislation seeks to protect young people under the age of consent, rather than criminalise them? The age-of-consent legislation, as it is now and as it will be after the Bill is passed, will still leave young gay males under the age of consent as potential criminals, which will discourage them from whistle-blowing if they are approached by older males, which seems to be a fear among many hon. Members.
Mr. Straw: I understand the point that my hon. Friend makes. It is a complex area of law. I hope that he will feel able to put in representations to the review, so that they can be considered in proper time.
Mr. Gerald Howarth: Although the Home Secretary's proposals to deal with abuse of trust are welcome--indeed, I supported the amendment that was tabled by the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton)--does he not understand that the message that he and those who will vote for the measure today are sending to the country is totally at variance with the message that the Government wish to give about the importance of the family?
Does the Home Secretary not understand that he simply cannot have it both ways? I know that the Government are keen to do that, but it is clear that the message that will go out from the House tonight if it votes for the
measure--it is opposed by 70 per cent. of the population, so the House will be out of kilter with the public--is at variance with the Government's proclaimed support for the family, which the measure seeks to undermine.
Mr. Straw:
That is the hon. Gentleman's opinion. I respect it, but I do not agree with it. I do not believe that anything in the proposition that I support and which, I think, many hon. Members on both sides of the House support--an equal age of consent at 16--is antithetical to the Government's view. That view is by no means a partisan view, and it is that, without preaching about the nature of adults' personal relationships, we should take action better to support families, especially families with children.
We can have a debate about that on another occasion, but I have to give the same answer to the hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) as I gave to the hon. Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne). The criminal law, when it was imposed with all its severity before 1967, did not prevent or stop homosexual acts taking place between people of any age; I know that for certain. It did discriminate against people who were of a homosexual nature, rather than a heterosexual nature, and caused untold, unnecessary and gratuitous misery to those people and, in many cases, their families as well.
Mr. Julian Brazier (Canterbury)
rose--
Mr. Straw:
With great respect, I have taken a large number of interventions and I should like to proceed.
The review that we have established will focus particularly on providing further protection for children and punishing abusers appropriately. It will look at a full range of sex offences from rape and indecent assault to indecent exposure, gross indecency, procuring and abduction. Many of the offences currently on the statute book are deeply anachronistic. I do not think that we would now consider it right that the offence of causing or encouraging prostitution of a girl under 16 can be committed only by parents and that the law cannot be used against pimps. Neither do we want to have offences that require the victim to be proved a "defective". Those are just two of the many examples of how the law is archaic.
The Sex Offenders Act 1997 is also under review. It is a recent Act, but we started a research project into its effectiveness last autumn. It is due to be completed later this year. We shall be looking carefully at the Act in the light of the study. The review will cover the list of offences and whether there should be any judicial discretion in imposing the registration requirement, particularly for juveniles. The inclusion of the new offence of abuse of trust in the list means that it will also be covered in the review.
I have today placed in the Library a copy of the report of the interdepartmental working group on preventing unsuitable people from working with children and abuse of trust. The Government welcome the report as the basis for an integrated scheme to provide greater protection for children and, in due course, vulnerable adults. Primary legislation will be required to put the new schemes in place.
Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon)
rose--
Mr. Straw:
I am almost at the end of my speech. Many hon. Members on both sides want to speak.
The integrated scheme envisages a central access point for three sources of information, including criminal records and List 99, which I mentioned earlier to the hon. Member for Worthing, West (Mr. Bottomley). The Protection of Children Bill currently before Parliament makes provision for the Criminal Records Bureau to be the central access point for the scheme.
The Government have embarked on a major programme to prevent sexual abuse in the home and elsewhere and to put in place safeguards and a new culture of protection of children through all areas of child care and social services. We have discussed that at length on other occasions, in particular in the context of the Government's response to the children's safeguards review.
Sir Norman Fowler (Sutton Coldfield):
This is the second time that we have debated the issue and the second time I have spoken, so my speech will be brief.
I welcome two aspects of the Bill. First, it starts as a Bill. Part of my criticism last time that we debated the issues was that the relevant amendment was introduced very late, preventing the House from giving it thorough scrutiny. The measure was offered on a take-it-or-leave-it basis. Now we shall be able to give proper scrutiny in Committee to all aspects of what is being proposed.
Secondly, I welcome the steps taken to recognise that children in care and under supervision need protection. Many of us have argued for that. We shall have to examine the adequacy of the protection offered. I sympathise with the point made by the hon. Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson). We shall need to consider issues such as the maximum sentence, but the measure is right in principle. I congratulate the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton), whose amendment brought the issue up originally.
Against that background, the question is whether the age of consent should be reduced to 16. For the Opposition, there will be a free vote on the Bill. I shall try to review some of the evidence, but I shall put forward my personal views.
In 1994, I voted for the age of consent to be reduced from 21 to 18. Eighteen is the age of majority, and it seemed to me sensible that young men should make up their own minds at that age. I do not go back on that judgment. There are some who think that that went too far, but I agreed with the Bishop of York, who said at the time that it was a sensible step and allowed the evidence to be assessed.
In coming to the subject, I am strongly and personally influenced by the campaign on AIDS that I conducted at the end of 1986 and the beginning of 1987. AIDS is not an exclusively homosexual issue, although some argue even now, wrongly, that it is. Equally, however, it is clear that it disproportionately affects the gay community. During that campaign and afterwards--when I was a member of the council of the National Aids Trust--I met
representatives of the gay community regularly and frequently. I do not wish to be patronising in my praise, but I hope at any rate that I can be acquitted of being hostile to the gay community.
During the AIDS campaign, I learnt two major lessons. It was a unique campaign, inasmuch as we sought to involve all the public and to rely on the public. I do not believe that anything like it has been attempted in the post-war years. The first lesson that I learnt was about what the public expected of Ministers and Governments. I remember that I was urged to lead what was called a moral campaign--in other words, rather than concentrating on practical health education, I was urged to provide a moral message on what was "right" and "wrong". Frankly, I was sceptical of that advice.
I did not advocate a promiscuous life style, but equally I did not believe that the public necessarily regarded Ministers or, dare I say, Members of Parliament, as the automatic role models or moral guardians of the nation. I must admit that some of the things that have happened since 1986-87 have confirmed me in that view. Whether it is back to basics or the third way, a well-meaning message is subject to the slight problem that it can be spectacularly blown out of the water at any stage. My view was that the public wanted sensible advice rather than lectures.
Mr. Brazier:
Does my right hon. Friend agree that if we were to extend his analogy a little further, the House of Commons should not have a debate on economic policy?
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