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Yvette Cooper (Pontefract and Castleford) rose--
Sir Norman Fowler: I will continue for the moment.
Bill Utting's report was about children living away from home, but his description of the threat has a wider application. We must remember that those who have been found guilty of sexual abuse have usually had a long career as abusers. As the Home Secretary may remember, in our previous debate on the subject I gave the example of the self-styled Bishop Gleaves. He may remember it because I also raised the issue in 1975 when I was last at the shadow Dispatch Box to speak on home affairs and he was adviser to the Secretary of State for Social Services.
Bishop Gleaves was convicted of offences against young people in the 1970s. I raised his case in 1975 and he was convicted last year of further offences and sentenced to 15 years in prison. My point is that he is a lifetime offender, like so many others. It is worth remembering that that is the context of this legislation.
I heard what the Home Secretary said and I certainly agree with him about reviewing the law. However, it is not merely a question of reviewing the law, but of reviewing the adequacy of the treatment of such offenders once they have been sentenced. We need to take into account our lack of success and, at times, the inadequacy of our efforts to change people's habits once they go into prison. The issue does not end at the sentence; in a sense, it begins after sentencing. Too often, we have no realistic
hope of sexual offenders changing their ways after they come out of prison. All too often, those hopes fail to be realised, as in the case of Bishop Gleaves.
Mr. Straw:
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman about the twin need to ensure that the offences are in order and that there is better punishment, detention and treatment of offenders. For that reason, as he may know, we are working actively on proposals, which I shall bring before the House shortly, for dealing better with offenders with dangerous personality disorders.
Sir Norman Fowler:
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, and I hope that he will bring the proposals before us shortly because it is a fundamental issue. While we repeatedly debate changes in the law, little appears to happen, which negates all our law-making efforts.
Mr. Joe Ashton (Bassetlaw):
I thank my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary for introducing this Bill, which I welcome and support. He and the Minister of State have done a magnificent job in listening to Back Benchers and the mood of the House, which was perhaps misunderstood last June. It was the end of the Session and we were trying to do too much, too soon. Now that we have had a another look at the matter, I am sure that the Bill will get a massive majority tonight.
That is a commonsense issue. The matter has been going on for a couple of years or more. As I had to remind Baroness Young on a television programme today, the European Court of Human Rights said that equality between men and women in respect of gay rights legislation was essential and that it would enforce it if the British Government did not introduce legislation. That seems to have been forgotten.
There was never really an anti-gay row about the matter. I voted willingly for the measure that was tacked on to the Crime and Disorder Bill last June. However, the House and Back Benchers resent it when they think that a Committee has not had a chance to study an issue, table amendments and let things take their proper course through the House. A lot of friction lingered after the age of consent was reduced to 18 under Edwina Currie's proposal. There was a three-hour debate without time to examine the issues at leisure. I welcome what the Home Secretary has done.
The Home Secretary will remember that the consent measure had a majority of 207 last June. When the question on my amendment was put, the majority fell to 40. Sad to say, the free vote was taken off. If it had been on, the amendment would have been carried and there
would have been even more chaos and mishaps in the Lords. When the measure has been carefully considered in Committee, there will be no reason for the House of Lords to reject it, although one or two may try it on. Many Labour Lords who voted then--a lot of colleagues my age and old trade unionists--were unhappy about what was being done. If the measure goes through as a separate Bill including my amendments, there will be much less resistance in the Lords. I hope that the Lords will also realise that, if it is not passed by Parliament, the European Court will say that we are out of order and impose it one way or another.
I am happy to say that it all started with a written question, which I tabled, about equality in other countries, to which I shall return later. The idea of a position of authority, influence or trust seems to have been reduced in the Bill to trust alone. I will come to that also.
The right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir N. Fowler) has outlined the extent of the problem and I do not want us to repeat the debate that we had last June. The Utting report told us that 200,000 children under the age of 18 were living in children's homes, foster care and boarding schools, with 1,700 in Prison Service establishments, 110,000 in boarding schools and 35,000 in foster care.
After public uproar, Esther Rantzen set up a child abuse helpline which thousands of kids called because they had no one to turn to. However, many children could not even afford the cost of the call, until the BBC fixed up a free phone line. The right hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Major), when he was still Prime Minister, set up the Utting inquiry, but, unfortunately, it reported just after the general election when everything was in turmoil and the media were preoccupied with the post-election euphoria. The report never received the analysis it merited--indeed, it was not even debated in Parliament until my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health made a statement on the subject.
Parliament was in danger of allowing a major social cause of public concern to go unanswered. I felt like people must have felt in the days of "Oliver Twist" or Dr. Barnardo: here we were debating every subject under the sun, while rent boys and young prostitutes were on the streets, having been shoved out there through no fault of their own. I am glad that the House is now studying a social problem on a non-partisan basis and that, as it does when at its best, it will eventually come to a conclusion that is mutually acceptable to Parliament and the public. I am sure that my friends on both sides of the House are also happy to be a part of that.
Dr. Harris:
I should like to raise with the hon. Gentleman a point that I was unable to raise with the Home Secretary, although I should still be interested to hear the Home Secretary's view. Last year, the hon. Gentleman was careful to introduce his amendment in a non-discriminatory way; he was at pains to point that out and we respected that. Does he feel entirely comfortable with the current provision, whereby heterosexuals accused of abuse of trust will have a get-out through marriage, which is legal for 16 to 18-year-olds with parental permission, whereas that course of action is not open to homosexuals? Can the hon. Gentleman suggest any means of resolving that continued discrimination? I understood that the Government were keen to introduce a
Mr. Ashton:
My personal view is that marriage is a partnership: neither partner is in a position of supervision or trust in respect of the other. I have often wondered why homosexuals do not draw up a contract to cover long-standing partnerships, enabling them to leave pension rights to a partner, or even to obtain a spouse's travel warrant to the House of Commons. I would have no objection to such arrangements.
However, to answer the hon. Gentleman's question, I believe that the public would insist on there being some form of written contract that would stand up in law. If the framework for such contracts were to be put before Parliament, I believe that the majority of Members and of the public would find it acceptable. The public will not regard mere mutual friendships, which can end without recourse to the courts, as being equal to marriage. The possibility of marriage is a separate issue, which can be dealt with in the Standing Committee, of which the hon. Gentleman might be a member.
I should like to thank some of the newspapers. Although we often criticise them, there is no doubt that, in respect of major social problems such as child abuse, the newspapers have the feel of the public and they know the causes of public protest. I have saved many cuttings since our debate last year. They include a story in the Yorkshire Post with the headline, "Pervert teacher preyed on children for 16 years", which describes how a teacher in Leeds raped a 12-year-old girl in a cupboard and terrorised his victims into not reporting him. Referring to the "epidemic in our midst", The Guardian named paedophiles, published photographs of them and described the crimes "that went unnoticed". The newspaper told of events at Greystone Heath, the approved school for boys in Warrington, saying:
"a 21-year-old student teacher . . . went to work there. Over the ensuing four years, he raped . . . 16 boys".
Other members of staff there included
"Alan Langshaw who raped . . . 24 boys; Dennis Grain who raped . . . 18; Roy Shuttleworth who raped . . . 10; Jack Bennett who indecently assaulted two".
The Guardian described how they "fanned out" and went to other institutions, including a Catholic boys' home, and other areas, such as north Wales. I give credit to the Daily Mail, the Daily Express and every other newspaper that has spent a great deal of time and effort exposing what has happened. An article entitled "Innocents on our streets of shame" dealt with children lured on to the streets by vice gangs. We should be reminded time and again of what is going on. The newspapers are not perverting public opinion but responding to it, and we have to respond as well.
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