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Mr. Richard Allan (Sheffield, Hallam): I shall respond briefly to the hon. Gentleman's direct challenge. I have tremendous respect for the spirit of what he is attempting to do, but felt--I thought that I had made it clear in my speech, which I shall check--that the wording of his amendment was rather all-encompassing. I know that he has a different view about driving parliamentary draftsmen to do something. I tabled amendments specifically on the offence of pimping, and will continue to support the call for the
creation of specific offences. I felt that his amendments were too general and that it was a problem that they did not distinguish between pimps and other people.
Mr. Ashton: We are always ready to welcome a sinner who has repented. I accept the hon. Gentleman's apologies. I very much welcome the fact that he will join us in the Lobby. Perhaps we can discuss that matter, and the question of whistleblowers, in Committee.
Mr. A. J. Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed): I am glad to follow the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton), even though he chided my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Allan) inaccurately. I respect the hon. Gentleman for moving forward the discussion and opening up a relevant area of debate as a Back Bencher. I commend him, even if he thinks that that is too dangerously like Lib-Lab co-operation. I shall move on because I know that he is not very keen on that sort of thing.
For Liberal Democrats, this a free-vote issue. Our party manifesto supported equalisation of the law, while reserving the right of Members of Parliament to dissent in a free vote. We welcome the fact that the Government have given the House an opportunity to consider protection for young people of either sex from abuse of a position of trust, whether of a heterosexual or homosexual nature. Many of us supported the amendments of the hon. Member for Bassetlaw, although they also concerned a free-vote issue. We shall all need to consider the relevant clauses in detail--but, first, let us consider the main issue.
There is a very wide range of opinions on homosexuality. Although there appear to have been some shifts of opinion in recent years, it still ranges from those who regard homosexual activity as morally repugnant to those who wish to affirm homosexuality as a commendable life style. Some people are disapproving but tolerant, whereas many others seek a society in which people of different sexual orientation can quietly go about their lives without its being an issue.
My view is that the present discriminatory law cannot be justified from any of those standpoints, and that it has harmful consequences. Moral disapproval on the part of some people, however strongly held, does not provide grounds for making private acts into criminal offences. Of course, if there is no consent, or if a position of trust has been abused, or if one of those involved is too young to be presumed able to give informed consent, the protection of the criminal law may be needed, and other parts of the Bill make that possible; but I do not think that a person over 16 who is allowed to marry and required to pay taxes can be presumed to be too young to give consent. If they are to be so presumed, it follows that heterosexual activity at 16 and homosexual acts involving 16-year-old girls should be subject to identical protection--and the House has consistently decided against that course of action.
Many of us who are worried about premature sexual activity by teenagers and its consequences for health have to recognise that turning teenagers into criminals does not help. If someone needs to seek medical advice about HIV
or AIDS, or needs guidance at a time of emotional turmoil, having to admit to a criminal offence can be a powerful deterrent to getting the help that they need.
I welcome the inclusion of provisions about abuse of trust, whether heterosexual or homosexual conduct, not least because so much evidence is coming to light of systematic abuse of young people by adults in such positions, but hon. Members in all parts of the House will want to be sure that those clauses have the right scope.
There is, rightly, an emphasis on protection for young people in residential institutions; but, beyond that boundary, where should the lines be drawn? Does it make sense to include teachers in day schools but not people who supervise young people at work, or who supervise them in the activities of youth organisations, some of which are residential? Doctors are not included, presumably because they are subject to medical disciplinary procedures. Some of my hon. Friends share the view of teaching organisations that a strong General Teaching Council--which we advocate in any case--should be the body to discipline teachers in a similar way for such breaches of professional conduct. Either way, I believe that something must be done. As the hon. Member for Bassetlaw said, the practice in schools has sometimes been to get rid of abusers as quickly and quietly as possible, by giving them an ultimatum accompanied by a good reference, thereby passing the problem on to another school, but there is scope for considerable argument about how some professions should be dealt with.
Mr. Rowe:
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that many of the people who, in middle age, become systematic and vicious abusers start out, as young people, with a much less developed criminality, and that, if it were made easier to intervene effectively earlier, there would be a much better chance that they could be diverted? Does he agree that the idea that it is kind to a professional colleague to allow them to slide discreetly into another job is very misguided as well as, later, potentially very dangerous?
Mr. Beith:
The hon. Gentleman may have a point. I should like to reflect on it, because I am not sure whether objective evidence shows that patterns of behaviour have limited incidence in earlier years and greater incidence in later years. However, I rest on the argument that something needs to be done for the sake of victims of abuse. Early intervention may well be desirable, even from the abuser's standpoint, as I believe is the case in other respects.
There are other areas in which there is not equality before the law for male homosexuals. The review of the Sex Offenders Act 1997 will need to consider some of those areas. For example, as my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris) has often pointed out in debates, private consensual sexual acts involving more than two people do not constitute a criminal offence if the conduct is heterosexual or if all the persons are female, but they do if all the persons are male. That matter is the subject of an application to the European Court of Human Rights, so we shall have to give it further attention.
The sex offenders register is another area of concern. I hope that the Home Secretary will reflect carefully on the issues. The names of all offenders under the Bill will be put on the register. I shall cite two possible cases that raise concerns.
First, a man who was put on the register because he had a single consensual sexual relationship when he was 17, before the enactment of the Bill, will remain on the register even though that action would no longer be an offence. I do not think that that is reasonable. Describing to me the review that is taking place, the Home Secretary stated in a letter:
Secondly, it is questionable whether a 22-year-old teacher, who on one occasion formed a relationship with a 17-year-old pupil, which might even have led to marriage, should be on the sex offenders register. It may have been right for the teacher to lose his job and suffer some penalty, but the purpose of the register is to reduce the risks from potential repeat offenders, which such a person would not be.
Ann Keen (Brentford and Isleworth):
Much has been said about this issue in the House over the years, and the House has had many opportunities to debate the age of consent. I am particularly pleased that many hon. Members, across all parties, supported my amendment last June, although I was disappointed and concerned that it did not become law. I am extremely pleased that the Government have returned to the issue in a Government Bill, and that it is so strongly supported by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.
Many, many young gay men and women look to Parliament to make it possible for them to be accepted and respected in our society. There continues to be so much damage to our young people. Persecution, discrimination and prejudice still exist. Today, we have another opportunity to end that and to show that we value all our young people.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is to be commended on all her work. The Good Friday agreement covers many areas, including not
only political and religious elements, but sexual orientation. It is an excellent example of the new thinking that is needed to embrace all the people and end discrimination against any of our people, wherever they live.
"I should make clear that none of the changes which may be brought forward"--
that is, following the review--
"will be retrospective, and we do not propose any retrospective changes to the scope of the register in respect of equalisation of the age of consent."
Not many members of the general public would regard it as reasonable for someone in the limited circumstances that I described to remain on the sex offenders register, which is designed to deal with case such as those to which the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir N. Fowler) referred, involving a repeat offender and a strong possibility of further offences. Names should not be left on the register as a result of a single offence that is no longer an offence.
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