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8.12 pm
Mrs. Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside): This very important debate is about the basic issues of government, accountability and representation. Over the past two days, the Opposition have painted a picture of confusion and disarray. Numerous Opposition Members have told us that they reject the principle that the rights of heredity are superior to those of democratic accountability, yet, in addressing that issue, they have described the Bill using adjectives such as "sinister" and "vindictive". They have said that they want to hear what the detailed proposals for change might be, yet appear to reject the proposition that a royal commission should be--indeed, already is being--set up to consider such details.
The Bill is part of a proposal that shows the Government's determination to deal very positively with an issue which, until now, has proved intractable. It is extremely important that we all recognise the momentous opportunities that the Bill, and the process that it begins, puts in front of us. We have the opportunity to look again at our constitution, give a voice to people who have been denied a democratic voice and the right to be listened to, and reconsider issues of accountability and the representation of interests and people who, for far too long, have been excluded.
The issue of devolution in the United Kingdom and beyond has been mentioned by many hon. Members. I welcome devolution; it is about accountability, the need to give a focus to decisions that are often taken in a fragmented way, and identity. Those different aspects of devolution assume different importance in different parts of the United Kingdom. We are to have a Scottish Parliament, a Welsh Assembly, a Northern Ireland Assembly, a Greater London authority and a Council of the Isles.
In England, with the formation of regional development agencies--we shall have, at long last, a focus for economic activity in the regions--and in regional chambers, we see at last an attempt to bring together, on an indirectly elected basis for the moment, a forum in which issues to do with social structure, the economy and the environment can be debated, and in which strategies can be addressed and delivered. In the House only yesterday, the Leader of the House confirmed that it is proposed to restore the Standing Committee on the Regions.
We have therefore reached a position from which an elected base--even if only indirectly elected--could nominate members of a second Chamber, whatever we decide to call it. Regional chambers in England comprise elected representatives. They are appropriate bodies to nominate people for a reformed House of Lords. In that way, the voice of the regions would be heard, not just in the House of Commons, where it absolutely essential, but in a reformed second House. Such views could not only be heard but considered and acted on. That could be done in the context of the United Kingdom and, indeed, of Europe. We would no longer have to face the situation, which the Transport Sub-Committee of the Select Committee on the Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs described last week when referring to the fact that the promise of regional rail links with Europe had not been delivered, of the regions of England being "cheated".
Such a system would provide an opportunity to consider the impact of proposed legislation on regions. It would provide a forum in which to consider the impact of spending policies on the regions and of wider European issues and the way in which the regions should influence those wider European policies.
Discussions in the reformed second Chamber would, of course, be only a part of the review of our constitution. There should be room, too, for the voice of the regions to be heard in this directly elected House of Commons. Indeed, I hope that, soon, regional chambers in England will be directly elected.
The regions of England are at different stages of readiness to move forward. The north-west is particularly well prepared, having worked with the public, private and voluntary sectors over the past eight years, in the North West Regional Association and the North West Partnership--and now, the north-west assembly--to put together strategies for training, economic development, transport and the environment, and to work with Europe. Indeed, such strategies are being enacted.
Mr. Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale, West):
I have been listening to the hon. Lady's speech with interest; she has obviously given considerably deeper thought to this matter than the Government appear to have done. I am intrigued by one aspect of her remarks. Why does she appear to hold the view that a second Chamber nominated by regional assemblies would better represent the interests of the regions than a directly elected second Chamber?
Mrs. Ellman:
The constitution of the second Chamber, its membership, role and functions will be the subject of consideration by the royal commission that is being set up. I believe that part of the revised second Chamber should comprise elected representation. It is vital that the voice of the English regions should be heard in that Chamber, and regional chambers or assemblies, which are indirectly elected, would be appropriate bodies to nominate such representatives.
Mr. Ian Bruce (South Dorset):
We can all agree that the debate has been of a particularly high standard. The House is always at its best when our more senior Members take part and give us the benefit of their collective memory and collective wisdom.
Although I was ready to attack the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs. Ellman) for starting her speech by somewhat misrepresenting the position of the
Conservative party, she made an important contribution to the debate, as she was willing to say how she thought a second Chamber could contribute towards the better governance of the United Kingdom. That is exactly the approach of the Conservative party.
I should state at the outset that, whenever I have been asked whether I accepted the hereditary principle, I have replied that I would never be on the barricades trying to defend a principle that is clearly indefensible, but that we in this place must defend a second Chamber that works rather well. When we replace it, we must replace it with something better.
I am, perhaps, fortunate to be in this place because of the hereditary principle--not because I have any claims on that basis, but because, in its great wisdom, my constituency has elected as two of its past four Members of Parliament a member of one of the hereditary families who, on the death of his father, has had to give up the seat. When Victor Montague moved from South Dorset, the seat was, admittedly, won by the Labour party.
My predecessor as the Member for South Dorset, Robert Cranborne, decided to go early so that he could do other things--indeed, he told us that he had to look after his acres of roofs and earn some money to maintain them. I was fortunate to be selected when one of the future hereditary peers decided to move on, so I am grateful to have gained my seat in this place as a result of the hereditary principle.
We must find ways of improving our second Chamber. Much that has been said this evening should be considered carefully by the royal commission. We have heard some excellent suggestions. It worries me, however, that the Prime Minister does not seem to want a political balance in the second Chamber, so that, when the Conservatives are in power, the Conservatives would have control in that Chamber, as would Labour when the Labour party was in power.
It would be daft for us to make the second Chamber more democratic and thereby to create a constant coalition where the Liberal Democrats of the day could enter a coalition with whichever party was in opposition to block the Government's plans. The Prime Minister should consider that carefully. By increasing the democratic accountability of the House of Lords, we would automatically give it more power. That is the difficulty that we all face.
Mr. Gordon Prentice:
It does not necessarily follow that, if the second Chamber were democratically elected, it would be in a position to challenge the primacy of the House of Commons. That all depends on the allocation of powers between the two Chambers.
Mr. Bruce:
I agree with the hon. Gentleman, but the Bill does not change the powers of the other place. It puts in place a Chamber that could go on and on. We must be cautious as we proceed. Many Labour Members object strongly to the House of Lords and are convinced that it is necessary to get rid of the hereditary principle. I hope to persuade them that there should be fundamental amendments to the Bill, or that it should be thrown out.
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