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Mr. Burns: I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for that cogent and sensible point. He has to some extent anticipated what I was about to say. I want to make it clear to Ministers and to the House that it is not the purpose of this probing amendment to introduce some massive, bureaucratic, interfering system with the power of the law behind it, to oblige water companies to notify estate agents or anyone else. That would be impractical and probably impossible to operate, however clever a parliamentary draftsman was.
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I repeat that briefly so that no misunderstanding can arise. I am not suggesting, nor would I want in a month of Sundays, some horrendously bureaucratic system backed up by law. This is a probing amendment and I shall not unveil a master plan to the House tonight. But I should like to see--the Minister has woken up, which is encouraging--a system which becomes part of the ethos of buying and selling houses.
Estate agents always draw up details of properties, which invariably include the appropriate council tax banding, ground rents where relevant, and so on. I should like to see some informal system whereby an estate agent, when approached by a householder to sell his house, can discover from a water company whether a property will continue to be charged on its rateable value, or whether the system will be changed once it is sold.
Obtaining such information will become part of the natural functions of estate agents when selling a house, and water companies will be expected in a reasonable but short period to supply the information, so that it can go on the house details. Prospective buyers will then know the exact situation.
The water industry may require some code of practice to ensure that, once a water company gives such an assurance, it cannot go back on it. A system which was not a burden on businesses and not onerous to estate agents could be worked out which would then become part of the ethos of house buying.
I shall not seek to divide the House on the amendment. I seek only to put forward an idea to remind the Minister of his comments in Committee; and to discover whether he has been able to come up with any ideas in the intervening time--whether such a scheme is not feasible, which would explain the absence before us tonight of a specific amendment, or whether he will use another place to come up with some idea.
Mr. Meacher:
That was a fairly long-winded reminder. However, I congratulate the hon. Member for West Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) on picking up a comment which I made in Committee--that a water undertaker has a right to impose a measured charge on a new owner-occupier. He has focused on a serious issue. I also pay credit to my hon. Friends, the Members for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. McCabe) and for Waveney (Mr. Blizzard), both of whom pressed me on the matter in Committee. I am sympathetic to it.
The hon. Member for West Chelmsford said that he did not want a bureaucratic solution which would be complicated and difficult. His amendment states:
I appreciate that this is a probing amendment. The Opposition cannot be expected to come up with a desirable process; they simply raise the issue.
I say again that we are in sympathy with the underlying purpose of the amendment, even though we do not believe that it--or any other provision made by the Bill--is a necessary or appropriate means of tackling the problem. I shall explain why. Clause 7 would enable a water undertaker to begin charging a new occupier on a measured basis. That is fair enough, provided that the new occupier has the opportunity to find out the water charging regime that he or she will face in that new property.
The real problem is one of information rather than powers. Rather than prohibit the undertaker from charging on the new basis, we need to tackle the information gap. That is part of the much wider issue of information for house buyers. We have issued a consultation paper on proposals for making the process of house buying and selling much easier. The consultation period finishes at the end of next month and it will provide another type of information, which we will consider before we introduce our proposals.
In our view, it would be premature to legislate now, in isolation, on the responsibility for a single piece of information available for home buyers. I assure the hon. Member for West Chelmsford that the Government will be discussing information for purchasers with interested parties, including the Law Society, water companies and local authorities.
I share the hon. Gentleman's wish that arrangements should exist to protect home buyers from having metering sprung on them--we are at one on that--but I hope that he will withdraw the amendment, as it is simply not the best way of ensuring that information is made available to home buyers. I assure him that we intend to identify and promote a better way. I hope that he will accept that.
Mr. Brake:
I will not detain the House for more than a couple of minutes. [Interruption.] I have been issued a challenge.
I have some sympathy with the amendment, the need for which did not emerge by accident, as the hon. Member for West Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) said, but because the Liberal Democrats asked the Minister about that need in Committee. It is regrettable that the Government have done nothing to address creeping metering, which is one of the key concerns in the Bill that have been highlighted by a number of reputable organisations.
The amendment could slow that trend, but it is not the most effective way of achieving that. Surely the exchange date would be better than the completion date, if we wanted to go down that route, but the most effective way
of stopping creeping metering must be to give people genuine choice--to allow them to choose to have a meter and to choose to have it removed, at any point in the future. If the hon. Member for West Chelmsford had tabled such an amendment, we would have been happy to support it, but we could not support this amendment.
Mr. Burns:
I am extremely grateful to the Minister for his comments. The amendment was clearly tabled to give the House an opportunity to discuss the matter and I certainly will not be pressing it to a vote.
Like the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions, I was particularly puzzled by the latter-day claim by the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Mr. Brake) that, once again, "It was all the Liberal Democrats' doing." It was not.
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Mr. Meacher:
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
"a relevant undertaker may not begin to fix charges in respect of those premises by reference to volume in accordance with subsection 2(b) above unless the purchaser of the premises shall have been notified before the completion of the purchase of the undertaker's intention to begin charging by volume."
That will be quite a bureaucratic process.
Amendment made: No. 35, in page 10, line 36, after '1' insert
'and Schedule (Schedule to be inserted in the Water Industry Act 1991)'.--[Mr. Betts.]
1.--(1) Any dwelling which is occupied by a person as his only or principal home.
(2) In this paragraph "dwelling" means--
(a) a private dwelling-house (which may be a building or part of a building),
(b) a caravan within the meaning of Part I of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 (disregarding the amendment made by section 13(2) of the Caravan Sites Act 1968), or
(c) a boat or similar structure designed or adapted for use as a place of permanent habitation.
2.--(1) Any house in multiple occupation which does not constitute a dwelling within the meaning of paragraph 1 above and in which any person has his only or principal home.
(2) In this paragraph "house in multiple occupation" has the meaning given by section 345(1) of the Housing Act 1985.
3.--(1) Accommodation for the elderly in which a person has his only or principal home.
(2) In this paragraph "accommodation for the elderly" means residential accommodation to which sub-paragraph (3) or (4) below applies, but which is not a dwelling within the meaning of paragraph 1 above or a house in multiple occupation within the meaning of paragraph 2 above.
(3) This sub-paragraph applies to residential accommodation--
(a) which is particularly suitable, having regard to its location, size, design, heating systems and other features, for occupation by elderly persons,
(b) which it is the practice of the landlord to let for occupation by persons aged 60 or more, and
(c) where the services of a warden are provided.
(4) This sub-paragraph applies to any building or part of a building designed or adapted for use as residential accommodation for elderly persons.
4. A hospital within the meaning of section 11 of the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984.
5. Premises used for the provision of medical services by a registered medical practitioner.
6. Premises used for the provision of dental services by a person who under the Dentists Act 1984 is permitted to practise dentistry.
7.--(1) Premises used for the provision of personal medical services or personal dental services under a pilot scheme.
(2) In this paragraph "personal medical services", "personal dental services" and "pilot scheme" have the same meaning as in Part I of the National Health Service (Primary Care) Act 1997.
8.--(1) A residential care home, nursing home or mental nursing home.
(2) In this paragraph--
"mental nursing home" means anything which is a mental nursing home within the meaning of the Registered Homes Act 1984;
"nursing home" means anything which is a nursing home within the meaning of the Registered Homes Act 1984 or which would be but for section 21(3)(a) of that Act;
"residential care home" means--
(a) an establishment in respect of which registration is required under Part I of the Registered Homes Act 1984 or would be so required but for section 1(4) (small homes) or section 1(5)(j) of that Act (establishments managed or provided by government departments, etc.),
(b) a building or part of a building in which residential accommodation is provided under section 21 of the National Assistance Act 1948.
9.--(1) A children's home.
(2) In this paragraph "children's home" means--
(a) a community home within the meaning of section 53 of the Children Act 1989,
(b) a voluntary home within the meaning of section 60(3) of that Act,
(c) a children's home registered under Part VIII of that Act,
(d) a home providing (or usually providing or intended to provide) care and accommodation for three or fewer children at any one time, other than a home which is (or would, if it provided care and accommodation for more than three children at any one time, be) exempted from registration under Part VIII of that Act--
(i) by or under any of subsections (4), (5), (7) or (12) of section 63 of that Act, or
(ii) by regulations made for the purposes of subsection (3) of that section by the Secretary of State.
10. A school within the meaning of the Education Act 1996.
11.--(1) Premises used by an institution within the further education sector or an institution within the higher education sector for, or in connection with, the provision of education.
(2) In this paragraph the references to an institution within the further education sector or within the higher education sector are to be construed in accordance with section 91 of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992.
12. Premises used for the provision of day care for children by a person who is registered under section 71(1)(b) of the Children Act 1989 in respect of the premises.
13.--(1) A prison or detention centre.
(2) In this paragraph "prison" means--
(a) any prison, young offender institution or remand centre which is under the general superintendence of, or is provided by, the Secretary of State under the Prison Act 1952, including a contracted out prison within the meaning of Part IV of the Criminal Justice Act 1991,
(b) any secure training centre within the meaning of section 43(1)(d) of the Prison Act 1952,
(c) a naval, military or air force prison.
(3) In this paragraph "detention centre" means any premises which are used solely for detaining persons under the Immigration Act 1971 or the Asylum and Immigration Appeals Act 1993, but which are not a part of a prison.
14. Premises occupied for the purposes of a police force.
15. Premises occupied for the purposes of a fire brigade maintained in pursuance of the Fire Services Act 1947.
16. Premises occupied for the purposes of the provision of an ambulance service by a National Health Service trust established under Part I of the National Health Service and Community Care Act 1990.".'.--[Mr. Betts.]
Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.
Order for Third Reading read.--[Queen's consent, on behalf of the Crown, and Prince of Wales's consent, on behalf of the Duchy of Cornwall, signified.]
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