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Mr. Wilshire: The right hon. Lady has yet again not told us in which order that must happen. Will the Minister, when he winds up, please tell us in which order those two things must happen?
Marjorie Mowlam: If it would help the hon. Gentleman, I can explain that it is up to the parties to decide in which order that takes place. The parties,
with the Government's support and encouragement, must find a mechanism to move this process forward. They have done so in the past on other issues, and I believe that, with the will and determination they have shown, they can do so again.
Mr. Wilshire: If I understand that intervention correctly, the Secretary of State is saying that she is prepared to contemplate allowing armed terrorists into an Executive. That is nothing short of abject surrender to the gunmen.
Mr. Hunter: Does my hon. Friend agree that what we are witnessing is a process of appeasement that morally corrupts the appeasers? The Government give way every time inch by inch simply to keep the process going. We are witnessing a moral corruption of government and a corruption of moral authority.
Mr. Wilshire: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is how he and I have always seen it.
I also understand only too well why the Government claim that there is no proof that the recent find of arms has anything to do with Sinn Fein-IRA. It is convenient to claim that there is no link, because that way they can pretend that the ceasefire is still in place. I also understand why the Government are prepared to believe the wholly spurious claim that Sinn Fein-IRA weaponry has been stolen. When it is used, it is possible to fudge the issue yet again by saying that it was not used by Sinn Fein-IRA.
I also understand only too well why the Government are always talking about a start to decommissioning. If they are pushed hard, they may call it a meaningful start, which perhaps means two bullets rather than one. I also understand why the Government keep talking about tokens of good faith. The one thing we can never accuse Sinn Fein-IRA of is having good faith.
Mr. Barnes:
Sinn Fein-IRA may not have good faith, but they are subject to influences and pressures from other people. Their involvement in intimidation and terror has been highlighted, so they have backed off in the past fortnight. They have done so because attention has been drawn to such activity in the House and elsewhere. If we advance such arguments, we have the moral authority to shift opinion. Even more important, opinion in the Irish Republic and throughout Northern Ireland will help to change the position.
Mr. Wilshire:
I am sure that those who would have had their kneecaps smashed and their ankles smashed and their elbows smashed are grateful for a fortnight's respite; but I do not think that tells us a great deal about what will happen.
Mr. Barnes:
That is an obnoxious response. I have tried, in the House, to aid bodies such as Families Against Intimidation and Terror in order to ensure that such action stops, and I have always seen that as an attempt to secure decommissioning in the end. If we stop exile, beatings and intimidation, we shall move a stage further, and the prize will be decommissioning. The hon. Gentleman may not like what I have said, but I very much dislike the response that I have just received from him.
Mr. Wilshire:
If the hon. Gentleman feels that I was being personal in regard to him, let me put the record
Mr. Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield):
I shall try to be brief, as I realise time is short.
I welcome the renewal of the order. When we discussed the whole question of the agreement last year, it was obvious that, to a certain extent, the agreement involved an act of faith: that the peace process could be got moving, and that a momentum would be maintained. It seems to me that one of the features of today's debate--and I certainly enjoyed listening to the contributions--is that there is a growing crystallisation and unanimity about some of the next stages of that peace process, which is moving away from simply the minutiae of the detail of the agreement to what is actually required to bring lasting peace to Northern Ireland. In that context, decommissioning is clearly central, and it always seemed to me that it would be central when we discussed the agreement last year.
We cannot predict what will happen. Certainly, the Government have my best wishes and my good will to bring about what appears at the moment to be very difficult, but I must tell the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Mr. Öpik) that it has seemed to me from the various discussions that I have had that the position of Sinn Fein-IRA on this issue has not been to look at legalistic niceties within the agreement, but to make blanket proclamations that they do not intend to decommission. If that is indeed their intention, this peace process is going straight into the sand. That seemed to me to be the case when we discussed the agreement and looked at the legalistic niceties last year, and it seems to me that it remains the position this year. It is therefore greatly to be hoped that the pressure that has been spoken about--not just by what we say in the House, which I dare say will carry very little weight, but by those outside and, indeed, in other countries--may be brought to bear on Sinn Fein, so that it can see the advantages of moving and showing that it really intends to maintain a peace process. The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire was right: that is clearly very difficult in view of the culture of violence and of the gun that has prevailed in Northern Ireland. I share his view that we in a democratic assembly sometimes forget that there is another world--the other
side of the mirror--which, to those who participate in it, appears to have equal validity, even if we as democrats have abandoned it. Therefore, it is a difficult transition to make. I agree with his comments on that point.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Adam Ingram):
The debate has been brief, but interesting and, in some ways, thought provoking. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Inverclyde (Dr. Godman) and to the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Mr. Öpik) for their thoughtful contributions. Both hon. Members always add balance to the debate. We are grateful for that.
The right hon. Member for Strangford (Mr. Taylor)--someone who has been very close to the whole process--made a major contribution. Obviously, the Government will take his points into account. Clearly, he is very close to the negotiations, discussions and the whole process. He knows the way in which the issue can be moved forward and the momentum maintained. I read from his comments that he wants the Good Friday agreement to work. He knows that that is the overwhelming view of the people in Northern Ireland. It is important that that message is put across: it is a difficult process, to which we are trying to find answers.
When it was last debated, the order was dealt with in Committee. Representations were made by the Opposition to have it debated on the Floor of the House. There was no objection from the Government. We felt that it would be useful, but it is interesting to note that, having made those representations, the shadow Secretary of State is not here. There may be good reasons why he is not here. I understand that he was in Northern Ireland today. I just make the point that I and, more important, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland have had to come back for the debate in the middle of a very difficult process. There has been a discourteous approach by the Opposition. I do not object to the debate taking place on the Floor of the House, but I hope that we can get a much more serious contribution from Her Majesty's official Opposition on the issue.
Not all parties from Northern Ireland are represented in the debate. That reflects what the right hon. Member for Strangford and others have said. It is an important order, but it should be approved and not used as a vehicle for other debates, with hon. Members trying to widen the debate into other areas.
I cannot stress too strongly how important the draft order and the subject of decommissioning are. They are critical to the whole process and underpin the Good Friday agreement. As the Secretary of State said, the draft order will allow for an extension of the period during which there can be the amnesty from prosecution for offences, mainly possession related, committed by people during decommissioning. Without it, there would be no decommissioning, which is, after all, a voluntary process that, but for the provisions of the 1997 Act, would put people at risk of prosecution.
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